Pedigree Query

here's my question....if you choose a stallion ....and that stallion is a A nick with your mare AND the stallion is a A nick with your mares mother does this bode well for the match up if physical types and conformation are compatible......have any of you tried this with any success?

reenci

I would say it depends on what the nick is based on, in other words if the nick with the daughter is based on a stallion that appears in the dam, then the system is basically using the same information. If the nick is based on a different horse within each pedigree of the daughter and the dam, it is showing that there are at least two different bloodlines represented that have crossed well with the subject stallion.

DDT

DDT WROTE...........


If the nick is based on a different horse within each pedigree of the daughter and the dam, it is showing that there are at least two different bloodlines represented that have crossed well with the subject stallion.


thats the case.........

reenci

Okay, then, without knowing the horses involved, I would say it provides another avenue. You must keep in mind that the nicks are based on sire line to broodmare sire line, and the production record of the female side of the pedigree is not taken into account. A.P. Indy has done exceptionally well with daughters of Mr. Prospector, but that does not mean that every daughter of Mr. Prospector will produce an exceptional runner when mated with A.P. Indy or one of his sons.

DDT

eNick WERK now offers a "MareMatch" which nicks your mare with all the stallions that have paid to participate in the MareMatch program..

I find this useful even when a stallion I like has not paid his dues as I can find nicks from similare stallions that are included in the MareMatch program..

Also, I do understand there are holes in the WERK nick scores but when I read that 70% of the graded stakes winners have a WERK rating of "A" or better, I decided WERK ratings are a useful tool. And when I find a WERK rating of "A++(+10,000%) or better I look very closely at that stallion.

griff

griff

I believe that the most important reason that 70% of all graded stakes winners earn an A rating on Werk, TrueNicks or whathaveyou is that over 50% of all graded stakes winners are produced by mares that have won or placed in stakes or produced stakes or stakes placed winners. In addition, more than 50% of all graded stakes winners are sired by one of the top 100 leading sires by earnings.

What would be more important to me is if 70% of all graded stakes winners were bred because the hypo mating gave the match an A rating.

Nicking systems can be used as a tool, however, the production records of the individual mares involved, in my opinion, is very important.

DDT

griff wrote:Also, I do understand there are holes in the WERK nick scores but when I read that 70% of the graded stakes winners have a WERK rating of "A" or better, I decided WERK ratings are a useful tool. And when I find a WERK rating of "A++(+10,000%) or better I look very closely at that stallion.

Another thing to keep in mind when you look at the nicking programs is that they are being continually updated as new info comes in. So if several horses that are bred on the same C nick become stakes winners, that nick gets upgraded after the fact on the basis of their performance. Which doesn't change the fact that when they were bred, the nick rated much lower.

I told myself I would never post again on a thread that has to do with ENICKS, but like LB and DDT have said. The system is geared to make sure that 70% Graded Winners are A Nicks, by continuously shifting the grade. It would most likely be a much different number if the grade at time of breeding was kept, then different for all breedings following the shift.

Plus Jack Werk said that an A +++ is the same as an A. So regardless if it has +++ in it its still an A.
Karen

I use the Werk Rating when planning a breeding to a particular stallion. Werk Ratings may be "bunk" and then again they may hold some merit. I find it a great starting point in my planning.

One other thing, by selecting a stud so that the prospective foal earns an "A" rating, a least stops the so called "critics" and "experts" from faulting the foal from that point of view. They like to use anything to fault a foal and bad mouth it.

Sparafucile

I would not go as far as to call Werk ratings, or any nick ratings, bunk, but if the "A" rating is based on a 3rd generation stallion on the sire side and the 2nd or 3rd generation broodmare sire on the bottom side of the pedigree, I would at least question the merits of the "A" rating based on the fact that the percentage of chromosomes carrying the genes that will be present in the hypothetical foal are not anywhere close to the percentage that would be present in a hypothetical foal with an "A" rating based on a 1st generation sire/broodmare sire cross. The systems do not consider this fact while making the rating.

DDT

One other thing, by selecting a stud so that the prospective foal earns an "A" rating, a least stops the so called "critics" and "experts" from faulting the foal from that point of view. They like to use anything to fault a foal and bad mouth it.

I'm no expert, but in my life so far I have never been at a sale and looked at a few horses then when making up a short list with a friend or two and had them say, "no way am I buying that great looking son of so and so...he isn't an A Nick". I don't run nicks on any horse I'm going to buy, nor do I do it for any I'm going to breed.
I look at conformation, and what crosses have worked well within the specific family in the past.

Spin it any way you like.. If 70% of all TB Graded Stakes winners have a WERK rating of A or above that is meaningful statical data.

That 70% does recognize that 30% of the graded stakes winners do not have a WERK ratinbg of A or above but I still say the 70% makes WERK ratings a meaningful tool

I agree there are deep holes in the system; i.e., I had a mare by Accelarator and out of Risen Star daughter and the WERK analysis only looked at Accelerator and A.P Indy to make their determination for a WERK rating while her lines to Mr. P, ND and Risen Star are ignored.. Hoiwever, because of the 70% stakes winner stat I still say the WERK system provides a useful tool.

griff

thank you all for the imput,.......seems to me there's a general agreememt here that their only one tool in the box, which makes sense.i myself have never put much stock in them .

Griff,

Spinning is the name of this game. What you have to ask yourself is, how many of those Graded winners were "Actually an A Nick" at the time they were bred, because it wasn't 70%.

So you can take your A+++++++++ Nick and your C Nick and make an "easy" decision, but know that by the time that foal is old enough to race that C Nick could also be an A+++ Nick and maybe not such an easy move.

I agree it's a tool...for MacGyver, when nothing else is left to split an infinate tie between 2 stallions.