Breeding Advice Sought! (re: Diplomatic Pleasure-mare)
Moderators: Roguelet, WaveMaster, madelyn, Diane
Breeding Advice Sought! (re: Diplomatic Pleasure-mare)
I own a wonderful mare, Diplomatic Pleasure, who's pedigree reads like a who's who of champion TB's! I am considering breeding her to Promising Trial and would like to know if that would be a "good match". If not, why, and who would be a good alternative? Am looking for a suitable stud in Central Florida with lines as good as or better than my DP's. Thanks! Am also looking suitable stallion for two other mares, Nottingham Lace and Ria's Little Angel. Please advise, thanks!
Copyright Bloodstock Research Information Services, Inc., 2003
INCENTIVE TRIP, 1985, Sr. Diplomat- Stephany C. by Right Proud.
YRS ST WN PL SH EARNED SR SSI
1990 Morning Electra,f,Exuberant 1 2 0 0 0 135 ( 42) 0.05
North America Dirt Sprints 2 0 0 0 135 ( 42)
North America Muddy/Sloppy 1 0 0 0 80 ( 42)
DP = 14-4-2-0-0 DI = 19.00 CD = 1.60
1991 Diplomaticpleasure,f,Princely Pleasure Unraced
DP = 14-7-6-1-0 DI = 6.00 CD = 1.21
Sold at Hip # Sales Price Sire Avg Rank Stud Fee
OBSOCT 1992 626 $1,000 $4,642 ylg (12/12) $3,500
1992 Barren
The listing in the APR for your mare shows the name as all one word, but she is in the database with her name as two words (incorrectly). Since she sold for $1,000 against a published $3500 stud fee as a yearling, she may not have been a precocious type... also she is a '91 model and apparently has not had any babies as yet, at least not Thoroughbred ones. Also, three generations of her female family have yet to yield anything with any sort of ability, so the question is are you thinking of trying to get a racehorse out of her? If so, be aware -- that her foal will likely have little or no commercial value if you are breeding to sell. If breeding to sell, I don't think the stallion you are considering would have the desired sort of impact... since he was nothing as a racehorse, and the mare has no racehorses in her family, prospective buyers would have to assume the foal is unlikely to be much of a racehorse.....If you are breeding to race, before you spend the THOUSANDS involved in getting something onto a racetrack, you should also consider the same factors.
INCENTIVE TRIP, 1985, Sr. Diplomat- Stephany C. by Right Proud.
YRS ST WN PL SH EARNED SR SSI
1990 Morning Electra,f,Exuberant 1 2 0 0 0 135 ( 42) 0.05
North America Dirt Sprints 2 0 0 0 135 ( 42)
North America Muddy/Sloppy 1 0 0 0 80 ( 42)
DP = 14-4-2-0-0 DI = 19.00 CD = 1.60
1991 Diplomaticpleasure,f,Princely Pleasure Unraced
DP = 14-7-6-1-0 DI = 6.00 CD = 1.21
Sold at Hip # Sales Price Sire Avg Rank Stud Fee
OBSOCT 1992 626 $1,000 $4,642 ylg (12/12) $3,500
1992 Barren
The listing in the APR for your mare shows the name as all one word, but she is in the database with her name as two words (incorrectly). Since she sold for $1,000 against a published $3500 stud fee as a yearling, she may not have been a precocious type... also she is a '91 model and apparently has not had any babies as yet, at least not Thoroughbred ones. Also, three generations of her female family have yet to yield anything with any sort of ability, so the question is are you thinking of trying to get a racehorse out of her? If so, be aware -- that her foal will likely have little or no commercial value if you are breeding to sell. If breeding to sell, I don't think the stallion you are considering would have the desired sort of impact... since he was nothing as a racehorse, and the mare has no racehorses in her family, prospective buyers would have to assume the foal is unlikely to be much of a racehorse.....If you are breeding to race, before you spend the THOUSANDS involved in getting something onto a racetrack, you should also consider the same factors.
So Run for the Roses, as fast as you can.....
No, I am not trying to produce a racehorse. I am just one person who likes TB's, and prefer to keep it pure. Diplomatic Pleasure has had babies, but you are correct that they were not thoroughbreds. She has had several warmblood-types, and the last baby she had was 2.5 years ago and it was an appendix QH type. Sire was a buckskin QH and the filly was a red lineback dun - quite pretty-her prior owner still has the filly. I just want her to have a baby or two that will be pureblooded TB and come from good stock, not for trying to generate any income, but just so that I know it's a good horse.
No one commented on my other two mares.....Nottingham Lace and her filly, Ria's Little Angel. These two did race - they have tattoos and all. I rescued them recently - prior owner left them out to pasture for a year with no maintenance, and just grass to eat. 2.5 weeks and much food later, they are coming along nicely, I am pleased to report!
I would appreciate commentary and/or a BRIS on these two mares, as well. THank you.
No one commented on my other two mares.....Nottingham Lace and her filly, Ria's Little Angel. These two did race - they have tattoos and all. I rescued them recently - prior owner left them out to pasture for a year with no maintenance, and just grass to eat. 2.5 weeks and much food later, they are coming along nicely, I am pleased to report!
I would appreciate commentary and/or a BRIS on these two mares, as well. THank you.
Nottingham Lace is by Whitesburg, but is 21 years old and I think trying to breed her at that age would be frustrating/fruitless, etc.
The daughter is by an unknown horse.
If you are doing as you say, and breeding for sporthorses, not racehorses, then soundness and conformation should be your guide.
The daughter is by an unknown horse.
If you are doing as you say, and breeding for sporthorses, not racehorses, then soundness and conformation should be your guide.
So Run for the Roses, as fast as you can.....
Here is the APR on the other two:
Copyright Bloodstock Research Information Services, Inc., 2003
NOTTINGHAM LACE, 1984, Whitesburg- Chiberta's Baby by *Solar Prince.
YRS ST WN PL SH EARNED SR SSI
1991 Lace's Baby,f,Rexson's Hope 1 3 0 0 0 122 ( 31) 0.02
North America Dirt Sprints 2 0 0 0 82 ( 31)
North America Dirt Routes 1 0 0 0 40
DP = 4-4-6-0-0 DI = 3.67 CD = 0.86
1992 Better Be Amazing,c,Amazing Prospect Unraced
DP = 6-6-10-0-0 DI = 3.40 CD = 0.82
1993 Great Diversion,c,Great Above 3 4 0 0 0 178 ( 56) 0.02
North America Dirt Sprints 4 0 0 0 178 ( 56)
DP = 6-2-6-0-0 DI = 3.67 CD = 1.00
1994 Barren
1995 Exuberant Lady,f,Exuberant 3 21 0 0 3 5,047 ( 68) 0.11
North America Dirt Sprints 21 0 0 3 5,047 ( 68)
North America Muddy/Sloppy 1 0 0 0 70 ( 40)
DP = 14-3-5-0-0 DI = 7.80 CD = 1.41
1998 Ria's Little Angel,f,Don't Take Forever 2 10 0 1 2 3,461 ( 65) 0.13
North America Dirt Sprints 6 0 1 2 2,912 ( 65)
North America Dirt Routes 4 0 0 0 549 ( 56)
North America Muddy/Sloppy 1 0 0 0 75 ( 51)
DP = 5-0-9-0-0 DI = 2.11 CD = 0.71
2000 Barren
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Copyright Bloodstock Research Information Services, Inc., 2003
CHIBERTA'S BABY, 1969, *Solar Prince- *Chiberta 2nd by =Scratch (Fr).
YRS ST WN PL SH EARNED SR SSI
1974 Overhead,c,Crimson Satan 2 17 2 1 2 9,050 0.79
DP = 11-1-6-0-2 DI = 3.00 CD = 0.95
1978 Return To Harlan,c,Whitesburg 1 2 1 1 0 5,550 2.87
DP = 6-0-12-0-2 DI = 1.50 CD = 0.40
1979 Muhlenberg Co.,c,Whitesburg 6 63 5 4 7 32,410 0.63
DP = 6-0-12-0-2 DI = 1.50 CD = 0.40 AWD = 7.00
1980 Barren
1981 Scarlet Water,c,Whitesburg 4 38 1 2 7 13,136 0.35
DP = 6-0-12-0-2 DI = 1.50 CD = 0.40 AWD = 8.50
1982 Barren
1983 Espanola,c,Whitesburg 4 36 1 4 1 9,580 0.24
North America 2 YO Record 2 0 0 0 495
North America Dirt Sprints 8 0 0 0 934
North America Dirt Routes 28 1 4 1 8,646
North America Muddy/Sloppy 8 0 2 0 1,260
DP = 6-0-12-0-2 DI = 1.50 CD = 0.40 AWD = 8.50
1984 Nottingham Lace,f,Whitesburg 4 34 3 6 4 10,736 ( 75) 0.31
North America Dirt Sprints 19 2 4 1 6,391 ( 67)
North America Dirt Routes 15 1 2 3 4,345 ( 75)
North America Muddy/Sloppy 1 0 0 0 27
DP = 6-0-12-0-2 DI = 1.50 CD = 0.40 AWD = 7.50
Copyright Bloodstock Research Information Services, Inc., 2003
NOTTINGHAM LACE, 1984, Whitesburg- Chiberta's Baby by *Solar Prince.
YRS ST WN PL SH EARNED SR SSI
1991 Lace's Baby,f,Rexson's Hope 1 3 0 0 0 122 ( 31) 0.02
North America Dirt Sprints 2 0 0 0 82 ( 31)
North America Dirt Routes 1 0 0 0 40
DP = 4-4-6-0-0 DI = 3.67 CD = 0.86
1992 Better Be Amazing,c,Amazing Prospect Unraced
DP = 6-6-10-0-0 DI = 3.40 CD = 0.82
1993 Great Diversion,c,Great Above 3 4 0 0 0 178 ( 56) 0.02
North America Dirt Sprints 4 0 0 0 178 ( 56)
DP = 6-2-6-0-0 DI = 3.67 CD = 1.00
1994 Barren
1995 Exuberant Lady,f,Exuberant 3 21 0 0 3 5,047 ( 68) 0.11
North America Dirt Sprints 21 0 0 3 5,047 ( 68)
North America Muddy/Sloppy 1 0 0 0 70 ( 40)
DP = 14-3-5-0-0 DI = 7.80 CD = 1.41
1998 Ria's Little Angel,f,Don't Take Forever 2 10 0 1 2 3,461 ( 65) 0.13
North America Dirt Sprints 6 0 1 2 2,912 ( 65)
North America Dirt Routes 4 0 0 0 549 ( 56)
North America Muddy/Sloppy 1 0 0 0 75 ( 51)
DP = 5-0-9-0-0 DI = 2.11 CD = 0.71
2000 Barren
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Copyright Bloodstock Research Information Services, Inc., 2003
CHIBERTA'S BABY, 1969, *Solar Prince- *Chiberta 2nd by =Scratch (Fr).
YRS ST WN PL SH EARNED SR SSI
1974 Overhead,c,Crimson Satan 2 17 2 1 2 9,050 0.79
DP = 11-1-6-0-2 DI = 3.00 CD = 0.95
1978 Return To Harlan,c,Whitesburg 1 2 1 1 0 5,550 2.87
DP = 6-0-12-0-2 DI = 1.50 CD = 0.40
1979 Muhlenberg Co.,c,Whitesburg 6 63 5 4 7 32,410 0.63
DP = 6-0-12-0-2 DI = 1.50 CD = 0.40 AWD = 7.00
1980 Barren
1981 Scarlet Water,c,Whitesburg 4 38 1 2 7 13,136 0.35
DP = 6-0-12-0-2 DI = 1.50 CD = 0.40 AWD = 8.50
1982 Barren
1983 Espanola,c,Whitesburg 4 36 1 4 1 9,580 0.24
North America 2 YO Record 2 0 0 0 495
North America Dirt Sprints 8 0 0 0 934
North America Dirt Routes 28 1 4 1 8,646
North America Muddy/Sloppy 8 0 2 0 1,260
DP = 6-0-12-0-2 DI = 1.50 CD = 0.40 AWD = 8.50
1984 Nottingham Lace,f,Whitesburg 4 34 3 6 4 10,736 ( 75) 0.31
North America Dirt Sprints 19 2 4 1 6,391 ( 67)
North America Dirt Routes 15 1 2 3 4,345 ( 75)
North America Muddy/Sloppy 1 0 0 0 27
DP = 6-0-12-0-2 DI = 1.50 CD = 0.40 AWD = 7.50
So Run for the Roses, as fast as you can.....
Thank you for the info - I wish I could make heads or tails of it!! <lol> I'm obviously not in "the business", so it's Greek. Why did you put the smiley's beside 2 of the lines for Nottingham Lace? Also, why did you say that Ria's Little Angel, her filly, was by an unknown horse? That unknown horse has Nearctic, Alydar and Raise a Native/Native Dancer lines! 
For being unknown, he has some good names back there.
Yes, I would breed for sporting, eventing, etc. and not racing. Do you really think 21 is too old given that what I believe is her last filly is 7 now? Lace is a very youthful 21. Just asking.
What breeds besides TB do you suggest for possible breeding for any of these 3 mares to accomplish my goal?
Sorry to inundate with questions! I am trying to learn as much as I can before taking any steps in any direction. Thanks for your patience!
For being unknown, he has some good names back there.
Yes, I would breed for sporting, eventing, etc. and not racing. Do you really think 21 is too old given that what I believe is her last filly is 7 now? Lace is a very youthful 21. Just asking.
What breeds besides TB do you suggest for possible breeding for any of these 3 mares to accomplish my goal?
Sorry to inundate with questions! I am trying to learn as much as I can before taking any steps in any direction. Thanks for your patience!
-
doublete
- Allowance Winner
- Posts: 445
- Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 7:34 pm
- Location: Sandy Spring, MD
- Contact:
Ask your vet about the viability of breeding your older mare. They can be difficult to get in foal after giving them more than one year off the older they get.
As for being unknown, she means no one really knows the stallion himself.
A LOT of horses have those bloodlines. I own three myself that have Alydar as a grandfather. 3 out of my 9. Pretty bad.
Myself, I like Trakehner/TB crosses for eventing. A lot of people like to 'dumb' the breed down by crossing to a traditional warmblood.
Just pick a stallion that suits your mare individually. Correct conformation, shows ability to do what YOU want to do, etc.
As for being unknown, she means no one really knows the stallion himself.
A LOT of horses have those bloodlines. I own three myself that have Alydar as a grandfather. 3 out of my 9. Pretty bad.
Myself, I like Trakehner/TB crosses for eventing. A lot of people like to 'dumb' the breed down by crossing to a traditional warmblood.
Just pick a stallion that suits your mare individually. Correct conformation, shows ability to do what YOU want to do, etc.
Racing and retraining.
Thanks, Doublete!! And thanks for not being condescending to someone not so in-the-know!
As for Trakehners....I always heard they were 1) high maintenance and 2) a little nutty! These are not traits I would want to pass on to any foal, least of all one out of my sweet mares! From your own personal experience, would you differ with those observations? If so, why?
Do you think it would be better to breed to a TB stallion just to keep the lines pure TB as opposed to cross-breeding to obtain any specific result? In other words, would it be better to breed to perhaps an "unknown" TB stallion as opposed to a more well known non-TB stallion? It just seems to me that preserving the integrity of the breed would be the more honorable thing to do.
All input is appreciated.
As for Trakehners....I always heard they were 1) high maintenance and 2) a little nutty! These are not traits I would want to pass on to any foal, least of all one out of my sweet mares! From your own personal experience, would you differ with those observations? If so, why?
Do you think it would be better to breed to a TB stallion just to keep the lines pure TB as opposed to cross-breeding to obtain any specific result? In other words, would it be better to breed to perhaps an "unknown" TB stallion as opposed to a more well known non-TB stallion? It just seems to me that preserving the integrity of the breed would be the more honorable thing to do.
All input is appreciated.
-
doublete
- Allowance Winner
- Posts: 445
- Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 7:34 pm
- Location: Sandy Spring, MD
- Contact:
Trakehners are nothing more than a TB crossed with another hot blooded breed (Arabs I think). They are just very sensitive. Much like a TB. Very talented as well. If you're not 'into' the higher maintenence, not for everyone horse, by all means, DO NOT breed to a Trak.
For your purposes breed to a stallion that embodies what you want to do. Pure TB's are a dime a dozen. GOOD TB's not so. But you may need to research to find a TB near you (or shipped semen) that is proven in the sport world already.
Or just pick a warmblood that the foal could be registered Oldenburg NA or in some other registry and that is proven as well.
I just don't like breeding unproven to unproven. So I'd pick a stallion that has proven himself either just as a sporthorse or both as a sporthorse and with babies that are sporthorses.
Breed doesn't really matter, but pick something that may be marketable. Speak to stallion owners to find out of they would/could sell your foal for you. If they dont think they could, don't breed for that foal!!!! Don't create more than there is need for.
Its a big decision, and most people find it is easier to go out and buy a yearling or two year old that is already physically there to choose from.
For your purposes breed to a stallion that embodies what you want to do. Pure TB's are a dime a dozen. GOOD TB's not so. But you may need to research to find a TB near you (or shipped semen) that is proven in the sport world already.
Or just pick a warmblood that the foal could be registered Oldenburg NA or in some other registry and that is proven as well.
I just don't like breeding unproven to unproven. So I'd pick a stallion that has proven himself either just as a sporthorse or both as a sporthorse and with babies that are sporthorses.
Breed doesn't really matter, but pick something that may be marketable. Speak to stallion owners to find out of they would/could sell your foal for you. If they dont think they could, don't breed for that foal!!!! Don't create more than there is need for.
Its a big decision, and most people find it is easier to go out and buy a yearling or two year old that is already physically there to choose from.
Racing and retraining.
Bondama, you haven't really said what your goal is yet except to keep the blood "pure"', so I am still wondering for what reason do you want to breed your mare?
You start out by saying about your mare
"who's pedigree reads like a who's who of champion TB's"
except the fact is that the mare's pedigree is quite blue collar and your statement is at best mis-leading. I don't think anyone is trying to put you down for that but realize that there are many posters that ask the same questions you are asking and they are also advised that their efforts will not be profitable either in the sales ring or for racing. This is opinion and anyone asking for advice will sometimes get advice they would rather not hear.
So the answer to your question re a "suitable stud in Central Florida with lines as good as or better than my DP's" totally depends on how you intend to use the resulting foal.
Florida is swarming with good warmbloods and you should find a nice one close to you.
As far a breeding a 21 year old mare, it is a risk but if she vets out I don't see a reason not to try if you are willing to spend the bucks.
You start out by saying about your mare
"who's pedigree reads like a who's who of champion TB's"
except the fact is that the mare's pedigree is quite blue collar and your statement is at best mis-leading. I don't think anyone is trying to put you down for that but realize that there are many posters that ask the same questions you are asking and they are also advised that their efforts will not be profitable either in the sales ring or for racing. This is opinion and anyone asking for advice will sometimes get advice they would rather not hear.
So the answer to your question re a "suitable stud in Central Florida with lines as good as or better than my DP's" totally depends on how you intend to use the resulting foal.
Florida is swarming with good warmbloods and you should find a nice one close to you.
As far a breeding a 21 year old mare, it is a risk but if she vets out I don't see a reason not to try if you are willing to spend the bucks.
You are correct, I didn't really specify my objective, did I?! I am wanting to produce a baby that will take my own baby (daughter) places (hunting/jumping), eventually into the Olympics. For reasons I am leaving out, my daughter will be noticed no matter what horse she rides, but for me personally, I want to make sure it's a good one. Money is always an issue - we are not well off people - this is why I can not invest in an expensive sport horse for her, and am seeking to breed our own. Stud fee for a good stallion I can work out, but buying a horse that costs more than my house, I can't!
I have 3 mares, so I'm not sure which one you are saying has blue collar pedigree, but the one I was referring to initially was Diplomatic Pleasure, and even a novice like me knows she is anything but blue collar. Her dam side might not be the best of the best, but Nasrullah and Princequillo are in there. Her sire side is better, with Bold Ruler, Princequillo, Polynesian, Nasrullah and Mumtaz Begum being in there. Sorry to name-drop, and it might not be best of the best, but it aint too shabby and far from blue collar. I think the mare has a good foundation to produce something nice, and that's why I'm seeking advice as to the best kind of stallion to use for her. Now that my specific need is known, perhaps that will put a new light on things.
This forum seems to be geared more toward racing, so I may not be in the best place. Thanks to all for your input.
I have 3 mares, so I'm not sure which one you are saying has blue collar pedigree, but the one I was referring to initially was Diplomatic Pleasure, and even a novice like me knows she is anything but blue collar. Her dam side might not be the best of the best, but Nasrullah and Princequillo are in there. Her sire side is better, with Bold Ruler, Princequillo, Polynesian, Nasrullah and Mumtaz Begum being in there. Sorry to name-drop, and it might not be best of the best, but it aint too shabby and far from blue collar. I think the mare has a good foundation to produce something nice, and that's why I'm seeking advice as to the best kind of stallion to use for her. Now that my specific need is known, perhaps that will put a new light on things.
This forum seems to be geared more toward racing, so I may not be in the best place. Thanks to all for your input.
The best stallion for your mare is one that crosses best conformationally, and mentally. Honestly, for what you are going to spend on breeding your mare to the time you can get your daughter on its back to show, you are better off buying a 2 or 3 year old now for a couple grand and going from there. I can tell you from experience, you can buy them cheaper than you can breed them. And not to offend you, but your mare does not have anything on paper to warrant you spending huge amounts of money breeding her. For a performance offspring prospect, go find a youngster at a reasonable cost (and yes, they are out there), and just enjoy having your mares around. It will cost a lot less in the long run, adn you can put more money into your daughters riding fund too!
Goodluck with whatever you do.
Goodluck with whatever you do.
A woman needs 2 animals in her life-the horse of her dreams, and a jackass to pay for it!
Hi Bondama, didn't mean to sound condescending. As for the emoticons in the APR data, the site does that by replacing the numbers there with corresponding emoticons. Regarding your mare, there are tons of horses out there with Princequillo, Nasrullah, etc., somewhere in their pedigree. As I said, at least Nottingham Lace is by Whitesburg who is not an unknown sire. With mares, we ask "who's your Daddy??" And then we look at the dam line. If your mares are at least 16.1, standing over "a good bit of ground", with absolutely correct legs, nice shoulder, well proportioned/set head and neck, etc., by all means look for the finest matching specimen stallion possible to produce a beautiful horse you can be proud of. Pedigree don't jump fences... and pedigree only Really matters for Thoroughbreds in the world of racing. If I were you, though, I would hedge my bet by having the mares approved for Warmblood first, and breeding a Warmblood. While we all know a Warmblood is really just a half-Thoroughbred, as you note, people will pay as much for a nice Warmblood as you paid for your house.... 
So Run for the Roses, as fast as you can.....