Pedigree Query

We have a maiden mare (currently in foal to Vicar) named A Loose Kisser. Located in KY. Thoughts for next year??

Hi, HP. We need to know your plans for the foal. Do you plan to breed to race, or to sell? Do you want to take advantage of any particular state bonuses? What's your stud fee range?

We would hope to sell as a yearling. Stud fee not to exceed $20,000.00. Plans are for it to be a KY bred.

What a nice girl; she has lots of suitors to pick from. Kissin Kris is not known for producing grade 1 winners, but has a lot of hard knockers of $200,000+.

He seems to work best with mares from Ribot, Princequillo, Hail to Reason, Raise a Native, Lyphard. (Not Mr. Prospector or other Northern Dancers so far).

His sire Kris S. has had good luck with Flying Paster, the above sires, and various Northern Dancer line mares,including Danzig and Sovereign Dancer.

Her broodmare sire Elmaamul is interesting, and the better sire. His grade 1 winners include Sweet Return, ex a granddaughter of Affirmed out of a Caro mare; Muhtathir, from a daughter of Al Nasr out of an Affirmed mare; and Bandeira Nativa, out of a daughter of Raise a Native from a Hoist the Flag mare.

For commercial value in your price range, consider Bernstein, a son of Storm Cat at $15K stud fee, who is out of La Affirmed. He's a fine-looking boy whose get are selling well, and he has a very good chance of producing good offspring, considering his parents' progeny records. Honour and Glory is interesting, since he has Al Nasr as a broodmare sire--see above. He's currently at $15K fee.

Sam is our resident expert on Kissin Kris, she's the one who updated all the progeny record.

I have a hunch that finding a sire who is inbred to Bold Ruler or to Nasrullah would do well, since your girl has so much Hail to Reason and Turn-To. It would be a nice complementary outcross for her. Or someone inbred to Ribot, Lyphard, or Exclusive.

Vicar is a distant relative of hers through full sister/brother Draeh and Occupy, but unless his progeny become more fruitful, his commercial value will drop quickly.

Thanks so much for your thoughtful analysis. I truly enjoy reading your other posts and and enjoy your thoughts on breeding and stallions. When you were looking at stallions in Lexington recently did you see Ocean Terrace? He has a very impressive physical appearance. His first babies will hit the ground next spring. Your thoughts on him?

Sorry, HP. I missed Ocean Terrace.

*bounce* Oh, I'm so happy she found a home .. I remember when she came up for sale a few months ago and was kind of worried about her.

If it's not too much trouble, could I get a picture of her for my personal files? [email protected]

Okay ... serious time.

Kissin Kris has only had 11 starters so far as a broodie sire, so keep in mind the sampling is REALLY small.

So far, his best runner is Laguna Pointe -- a 3yo filly by Thunder Gulch with $53,300 in earnings and 3rd in the Bay Meadows Oaks.
His next two best runners are both from the Bold Ruler line (True Kiss, 3yo by Is It True with $30,520 in earnings and Cranberry Lake, 3yo by Dr. Caton with $22,538)

True Kiss is a decent little 30k ALW horse, Cranberry Lake made all her money as a 2yo trying to break her maiden (finally did it in her 7th start up at Woodbine in a 20k Maiden Claimer)

Personally, I'd find a nice miler type -- preferably a Prospector. One carrying Bold Ruler would be a bonus. 41 starts, she's sound, but she hung out in all those $4k claiming races out at Penn National et all. No speed and only a little talent (which is why I'd go with a Prospector line sire -- preferably a Forty Niner -- over a Slew line. She needs to have a little precocity bred into her).

Looking in the $7,500k to $20k range -- and I'll be perfectly honest, I wouldn't go much higher than $12,500 with her, so I'd really only look at anything over $15k if you could get them to cut you a deal -- the list of horses to look at would be (in alphabetical order by stud fee):

$7,500 Stallions:

Changeintheweather
Malabar Gold
Marquetry
Whywhywhy

$10,000 Stallions:

Broken Vow
Crafty Prospector
Cuvee
Ecton Park
Jump Start
Real Quiet

$12,500 Stallions:

Cryptoclearance (though, I could have sworn I'd heard he'd been pensioned)
Northern Afleet (would appeal to those in the Mid-Atlantic region since it's the Afleet over Roberto that Afleet Alex is)

$15,000 Stallions:

City Zip
Distant View
Proud Citizen

$20,000 Stallions:

Quiet American
Woodman

Of those, the ones I'd personally take a shot at would be (In preference order) --

Malabar Gold
Jump Start
Broken Vow
Proud Citizen
City Zip
Northern Afleet (Though I'm almost positive you'd never get this mare to him now)

Crafty Prospector retires after this season. I really like the look of Proud Citizen, and with Marquetry you get the good Deputy Minister female family. I don't know what stud fee Northern Afleet will be next year, but he's definitely going up, according to the stallion manager at Taylor Made.

henthorn wrote:Crafty Prospector retires after this season. I really like the look of Proud Citizen, and with Marquetry you get the good Deputy Minister female family. I don't know what stud fee Northern Afleet will be next year, but he's definitely going up, according to the stallion manager at Taylor Made.

I was going off current stud fee listings ... thought it was a little odd that they still had NA at $12,500.

I'm sure Northern Afleet goes to $35k at least. I love Proud Citizen as a sire prospect -- that female family is awesome and I still think in the hands of someone other than Lukas, he would have been much better than he was. He ruined him trying to bring him back into form after the triple crown. He SHOULD have put him away until March of his 4yo season. Marquetry would definitely put speed in this mare.

You know, I know you said you were looking to breed in Kentucky and were looking sell, but two stallions (and I hope I don't offend you by suggesting them) just came to mind and might be a good match for her in a smaller regional market -- Cartwright in Illinois and Mercer Mill in Ohio.

I know you said your stud fee limit shouldn't exceed $20k, but I really don't think you need to go that high with her and you might make a better profit going to a smaller stallion in a regional market and having it eligible for state money than going with one of the boys in Kentucky and trying to sell there.

Thanks so much for your thoughts. What about Out of Place? He has a tremendous nick with Kris S broodmares, seems like 25 foals out of 20 Kris S mares with 8 or 9 stakes winners. Do you believe it might be an affinity for another branch of Turn To that has created so many stakes horses from such few foals. Look at the bloodhorse stallion page of Out Of Place's best progeny. Next question do you think it might work with Kissin Kris mares?? Thanks again to both.

hpkingjr wrote:Thanks so much for your thoughts. What about Out of Place? He has a tremendous nick with Kris S broodmares, seems like 25 foals out of 20 Kris S mares with 8 or 9 stakes winners. Do you believe it might be an affinity for another branch of Turn To that has created so many stakes horses from such few foals. Look at the bloodhorse stallion page of Out Of Place's best progeny. Next question do you think it might work with Kissin Kris mares?? Thanks again to both.

See what happens when you narrow your search too much I was so focused on looking for Prospectors carrying Bold Ruler, I never really bothered to look at much else.

I think you're right and that Out Of Place could be a good match up with her. She already carries 2 lines of Man O War and you'd be picking up a third through OOP. You'd be picking up a 4th line of Turn-to, but it would all be back in the 5th/6th gens which is fine with me and Kissin Kris has shown that he couples well with an additional shot of Hail to Reason/Turn-To (His two best runners are out of a H2R mare and a Band Practice mare).

If they are physically complimentary to each other, he's certainly one to consider. (I still like Malabar Gold as he was one of the few Unbridleds with some speed and longevity -- winning stakes as a 5yo)

I personally really like Out of Place physically. But he's 16.3 hh, rangy boy, somewhat upright angles. He was getting better percentages and sales prices in the past, but individuals still sell well. If he matches your mare, the probable sales price will be lower than some others.

Hi HP,

The horses I would seriously consider would be Five Star Day, Lost Soldier, Northern Afleet, Congaree, Concerto, Good and Tough, Lion Hearted, Yonaguska,Freud, and Yankee Gentleman. Kris S. loves Northern Dancer and Mr. Prospector bloodlines. War Chant, Sweet Catomine, and Senor Swinger are from Northern Dancer sire lines. Hollywood Wildcat and Rock Hard Ten are out of Mr. Prospector mares as Kicken Kris is out of a Jade Hunter mare. Commander in Chief is by Dancing Brave and out of a Roberto mare. Afleet Alex is by A Mr. Prospector/Nureyev sire line through Northern Afleet and out of a Roberto line mare through Silver Hawk and Hawkster. Black Hawk is by Nureyev and of Straight Line a sister to Hawkster. Electonic Unicorn is by Housebuster and out of a Roberto mare and that is why I thought Congaree may be a consideration and Congaree is 3x3 Northern Dancer. There are lots of otions to consider and Five Star Day is off to a fast start and he may be a horse to consider. If you can get a blend of Northern Dancer,Mr. Prospector, and Nasrullah that would be awesome.

Keith