I need some advice. I'm looking at a hypomating that would result in a sex balanced 3x3 to Irish Castle through Priceless Fame (top through Saratoga Six) and Irish Tower (bottom). I don't know a lot about Irish Castle. Is he a strong enough candidate to inbreed/linebreed this close up? The mare brings soundness (41 starts) and ability (she's a SW and produced a champion in the Dominican Republic and 2 other SP) and a nicely producing female family to the mix. Thoughts?
(I'm not trying to be mysterious but I can't give the mare's name yet.)
Thanks,
Laurie
Irish Castle 3x3
Moderators: Roguelet, WaveMaster, madelyn, Diane
Irish Castle 3x3
So many pedigrees...so little time. (C)
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Bill from WA
- Breeder's Cup Contender
- Posts: 1936
- Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 11:20 am
- Location: Mountlake Terrace, WA
Irish Castle was a very good two-year-old, and a decent sire. Traces tail female to Cherokee Rose II (Storm Cat, Coronado's Quest, Intent, Fusaichi Pegasus, etc). Inbreeding that close to Irish Castle hasn't produced much in the way of stakes winners or outstanding runners. Irish Castle himself was inbred 3x4 to Nearco, so you would be bringing in multiple concentrations of that great stallion. Cherokee Rose II is classified as a B/S influence in the conduit aptitudinal list, with Irish Castle predominately contributing Brilliance.
Bill
Bill
Hold fast to dreams, for if dreams die, life is like a broken winged bird that cannot fly.
Langston Hughes
Langston Hughes
Zialand -
you said:
If you will take a look in this database alone at the top money earners for IRISH OPEN you will find that this grandson of IRISH CASTLE seems to provide a consistent 'durability' aspect to this offspring. In fact it is the exception rather than the norm that his top runners (or to my experience here in Texas, even his lesser runners) have less than 20-30 lifetime starts. They win by running often and winning often enough. They most usually compete at a notch or two below SW categories but even among those that excell the Irish Opens are consistently running and winning for several years---not just as 2YOs.
I would also suggest that IRISH OPEN is not really a sire of early maturing types, i.e. 2YO runners & winners, but he is most certainly a sire of workmanlike durable runners and winners that have long careers on the track. IF you click on the pedigrees of his top 20 earners as listed here you'll see a great many of them are also inbred to either Bold Ruler or Nasrullah though I did not see any inbred to Irish Castle. I also noticed that many of the mares he was bred to are of stamina oriented pedigrees/sirelines: i.e. Ribot sireline stallions, Graustark sireline stallions, Damascus sireline stallions etc. so perhaps not all the durability may be attributed to IRISH OPEN...but it is what he is known for among breeders here in Texas.
I'm not as familiar with the offspring/career of Belek, another Irish Castle via Irish Tower stallion that has stood his entire stallion career in Louisiana but have the sense - from limited observation - that he similarly stamps his young. He has not seen near as many mares and quite possibally not the same quality but has also produced some durable, long lived types for the regional tracks of Texas and Louisiana. His stats, unlike IRISH OPEN's are not fortunate enough to have been influenced by the quality of mares IRISH OPEN was originally bred to in Kentucky under former Governor Jones' patronage and support. Perhaps with the larger purses now being offered to La-breds as a result of that state's approval of slots he will be better, more broadly patronized.
IRISH OPEN's pedigree presents a fair amount of inbreeding himself (Menow) and linebreeding via his inbred dam, No Opening (War Admiral twice, crossed to two daughters of La Troienne so essentially producign 3/4 sisters close up on the bottom side of his pedigree). I think he often benefits from matings that play to those strengths of his pedigree but via different lines - Tom Fool or Buckpasser for instance. He also seems very amenable to another dose of Bold Ruler or a strain of Nasrullah via a different son.
fn I also note that two of his top earners were/are inbred or line bred to Ambiorix....but my own attempt to make that cross successful (via Noon Time Dora'87) did not result in a filly at least early on showing superior talent although she certainly tried every workout and gallop, never holding back. As a result I have not tried to race her.
you said:
I don't know a lot about Irish Castle. Is he a strong enough candidate to inbreed/linebreed this close up? The mare brings soundness (41 starts) and ability (she's a SW and produced a champion in the Dominican Republic and 2 other SP) and a nicely producing female family to the mix.
If you will take a look in this database alone at the top money earners for IRISH OPEN you will find that this grandson of IRISH CASTLE seems to provide a consistent 'durability' aspect to this offspring. In fact it is the exception rather than the norm that his top runners (or to my experience here in Texas, even his lesser runners) have less than 20-30 lifetime starts. They win by running often and winning often enough. They most usually compete at a notch or two below SW categories but even among those that excell the Irish Opens are consistently running and winning for several years---not just as 2YOs.
I would also suggest that IRISH OPEN is not really a sire of early maturing types, i.e. 2YO runners & winners, but he is most certainly a sire of workmanlike durable runners and winners that have long careers on the track. IF you click on the pedigrees of his top 20 earners as listed here you'll see a great many of them are also inbred to either Bold Ruler or Nasrullah though I did not see any inbred to Irish Castle. I also noticed that many of the mares he was bred to are of stamina oriented pedigrees/sirelines: i.e. Ribot sireline stallions, Graustark sireline stallions, Damascus sireline stallions etc. so perhaps not all the durability may be attributed to IRISH OPEN...but it is what he is known for among breeders here in Texas.
I'm not as familiar with the offspring/career of Belek, another Irish Castle via Irish Tower stallion that has stood his entire stallion career in Louisiana but have the sense - from limited observation - that he similarly stamps his young. He has not seen near as many mares and quite possibally not the same quality but has also produced some durable, long lived types for the regional tracks of Texas and Louisiana. His stats, unlike IRISH OPEN's are not fortunate enough to have been influenced by the quality of mares IRISH OPEN was originally bred to in Kentucky under former Governor Jones' patronage and support. Perhaps with the larger purses now being offered to La-breds as a result of that state's approval of slots he will be better, more broadly patronized.
IRISH OPEN's pedigree presents a fair amount of inbreeding himself (Menow) and linebreeding via his inbred dam, No Opening (War Admiral twice, crossed to two daughters of La Troienne so essentially producign 3/4 sisters close up on the bottom side of his pedigree). I think he often benefits from matings that play to those strengths of his pedigree but via different lines - Tom Fool or Buckpasser for instance. He also seems very amenable to another dose of Bold Ruler or a strain of Nasrullah via a different son.
fn I also note that two of his top earners were/are inbred or line bred to Ambiorix....but my own attempt to make that cross successful (via Noon Time Dora'87) did not result in a filly at least early on showing superior talent although she certainly tried every workout and gallop, never holding back. As a result I have not tried to race her.
briarhalo -
Wow - 16.1 and still growing. I think that's amazing as Irish Open himself is on the small side in terms of stature and many of his offspring that I see racing here in Texas - where he is still in the Top 10 Sires List by LTE - are in the 15-15.2 range .....but every now and again I do spot a tall one, like yours. Good luck with him. Irish Open is one of the finest 'sculpted' thoroughbreds I've ever seen - he is so balanced and powerful that he appears taller than he is.
P.S. I really like my 14.3HH mare, 4YO in 2005, - she just isn't that talented in the racing department but very nice otherwise. I didn't want to put her in the claiming races so I'm working with her now as a pleasure horse, trail riding, jumping some low jumps and doing some driving with her. She is so easy to train and wants to please. I'm thrilled with that pleasant demeanor and solid mind she has as almost every other foal out of her dam has been something of a hottentot! She definitely got that from her sire so I guess in that sense he did improve on my mare (!).
Wow - 16.1 and still growing. I think that's amazing as Irish Open himself is on the small side in terms of stature and many of his offspring that I see racing here in Texas - where he is still in the Top 10 Sires List by LTE - are in the 15-15.2 range .....but every now and again I do spot a tall one, like yours. Good luck with him. Irish Open is one of the finest 'sculpted' thoroughbreds I've ever seen - he is so balanced and powerful that he appears taller than he is.
P.S. I really like my 14.3HH mare, 4YO in 2005, - she just isn't that talented in the racing department but very nice otherwise. I didn't want to put her in the claiming races so I'm working with her now as a pleasure horse, trail riding, jumping some low jumps and doing some driving with her. She is so easy to train and wants to please. I'm thrilled with that pleasant demeanor and solid mind she has as almost every other foal out of her dam has been something of a hottentot! She definitely got that from her sire so I guess in that sense he did improve on my mare (!).
Jellac.....I have no idea where his size has come from.....lol. His mother was 16H and father was only 15.2 maybe 15.3. And he is an orphan, went through strangles and pnemonia at 2 months (also 100lbs underweight at that time) and Hernia surgery at 4 months! He has been through quite a bit in his young life. Certainly has the heart to run, I believe the talent, however not sure that I have the bank balance...lol.
Hi Zia,
In general, unless there's a compelling reason, I don't like to see any stallion inbred as close as 3x3, with the exception of Northen Dancer and even in his case I won't want it through 2 sons.
Regards,
Pete
In general, unless there's a compelling reason, I don't like to see any stallion inbred as close as 3x3, with the exception of Northen Dancer and even in his case I won't want it through 2 sons.
Regards,
Pete
Has a palomino jean that pop up some.
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
Hi Shegar,
Thanks for pointing me towards Renteria's pedigree. I know him well because a client owns his sister, Not Thru Flying. I hadn't realized that he was 2x3 Northern Dancer. He may be in'exile' but at least he's leading the state as of now.
You could leverage more Northern Dancer in the right situation. Our fellow board member, Henthorn, has a mare named Hop To It. If you put up a hypo mating with Renteria and Hop To It I think you'll see a fascinating pedigree that is outcrossed through 5 generations, 54% unique through 9 generations and yet line bred to the max, all based on a framework of Northern Dancer who appears 4 times in 5 generations, once in each quadrant.
Northern Dancer's ability to package Hyperion is a key and there are several strains of new blood (mostly though through minor sources) that might help coalesce this pedigree.
Hop To It's pedigree is very interesting itself. Her 10th dam is the exceptional Thora, ancestress (amongst others) of Leisure who produced two Preakness winners, Royal Holiday (in 1908) and Holiday (in 1914).
For 5 generations after Thora this family doesn't produce many quality horses but that begins to change with Sadye S. (Hop To It's 4th dam) and her descendants that include In The Curl, Thirty Eight Paces and more recently, Brushing Up.
Sadye S.'s pedigree is loaded with non descript names beginning with the forgettable Domino sire line through Fritzy Maisel, Little Beans and Mirafel. Her weak sire line traces to the good son of Ultimus, High Time and Sadye's 2nd dam, Inneundo is a grand daughter of High Time making her 4x4 to High Time.
High Time is most interesting because his sire, Ultimus, is deeply inbred to Domino 2x2, and High Time is out the Domino daughter, Noonday, making him 3x3x2 Domino and giving 6 strains of Domino to Sadye (7x7x6x7x7x6) tied top and bottom, wrapping a clever cross of Man O'War and his full brother Playfellow (in the 4th generation) and leveraging the Fair Play / Domino cross. This would serve to subvert Sadye, but also reinforce her blood and the improvement in the quality of her family since I assume to be based on this clever breeding.
Regards,
Pete
Thanks for pointing me towards Renteria's pedigree. I know him well because a client owns his sister, Not Thru Flying. I hadn't realized that he was 2x3 Northern Dancer. He may be in'exile' but at least he's leading the state as of now.
You could leverage more Northern Dancer in the right situation. Our fellow board member, Henthorn, has a mare named Hop To It. If you put up a hypo mating with Renteria and Hop To It I think you'll see a fascinating pedigree that is outcrossed through 5 generations, 54% unique through 9 generations and yet line bred to the max, all based on a framework of Northern Dancer who appears 4 times in 5 generations, once in each quadrant.
Northern Dancer's ability to package Hyperion is a key and there are several strains of new blood (mostly though through minor sources) that might help coalesce this pedigree.
Hop To It's pedigree is very interesting itself. Her 10th dam is the exceptional Thora, ancestress (amongst others) of Leisure who produced two Preakness winners, Royal Holiday (in 1908) and Holiday (in 1914).
For 5 generations after Thora this family doesn't produce many quality horses but that begins to change with Sadye S. (Hop To It's 4th dam) and her descendants that include In The Curl, Thirty Eight Paces and more recently, Brushing Up.
Sadye S.'s pedigree is loaded with non descript names beginning with the forgettable Domino sire line through Fritzy Maisel, Little Beans and Mirafel. Her weak sire line traces to the good son of Ultimus, High Time and Sadye's 2nd dam, Inneundo is a grand daughter of High Time making her 4x4 to High Time.
High Time is most interesting because his sire, Ultimus, is deeply inbred to Domino 2x2, and High Time is out the Domino daughter, Noonday, making him 3x3x2 Domino and giving 6 strains of Domino to Sadye (7x7x6x7x7x6) tied top and bottom, wrapping a clever cross of Man O'War and his full brother Playfellow (in the 4th generation) and leveraging the Fair Play / Domino cross. This would serve to subvert Sadye, but also reinforce her blood and the improvement in the quality of her family since I assume to be based on this clever breeding.
Regards,
Pete
Has a palomino jean that pop up some.
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
Thanks for your comments everyone. This forum continues to be a great source of good information.
The mare I'm look to acquire is Galway Song. She's a SW, G1 & G2 stakes placed and a pretty consistant producer including two black type and a foreign champion (Blizzard). (Her produce record on this database needs to be updated as it doesn't capture true earnings of her offspring, etc.)
I was looking at Saratoga Six, but since she's an older mare, I think I'd have a better shot at producing a competitive foal if both parents weren't senior citizens, so I'm currently considering Seacliff and Chopin (I'm staying with NM bred stallions for now).
Any suggestions on a stallion you think would work with her pedigree? I'd consider sending her out of state, but hesitate to do so because of her age.
Thanks,
Laurie
The mare I'm look to acquire is Galway Song. She's a SW, G1 & G2 stakes placed and a pretty consistant producer including two black type and a foreign champion (Blizzard). (Her produce record on this database needs to be updated as it doesn't capture true earnings of her offspring, etc.)
I was looking at Saratoga Six, but since she's an older mare, I think I'd have a better shot at producing a competitive foal if both parents weren't senior citizens, so I'm currently considering Seacliff and Chopin (I'm staying with NM bred stallions for now).
Any suggestions on a stallion you think would work with her pedigree? I'd consider sending her out of state, but hesitate to do so because of her age.
Thanks,
Laurie
So many pedigrees...so little time. (C)
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Bill from WA
- Breeder's Cup Contender
- Posts: 1936
- Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 11:20 am
- Location: Mountlake Terrace, WA
I rather like Seacliff with her. He looks promising. Good sprinter/miler type with a pedigree that brings more stamina than is obvious at first glance. He won routing as a 2yo. I don't know about his conformation, but he won 4 stakes (one a G3) in 11 lifetime starts, 2 and 3 years of age. Seacliff is inbred to the full siblings Moslem Chief and Believe Me, through the very fast stakes winner Up The Hill (7 wins in 30 starts). Up the Hill was also a good producer, with 12 foals, all of which raced, and 10 being winners. She was pigeon-toed, a trait she inherited from her dam, but Somethingroyal also had this characteristic and look how she did. This mating would pretty much be an outcross, but has fine deep line breeding with crosses of Alibhai, Discovery, Nasrullah, and Count Fleet farther back.
Bill
Bill
Hold fast to dreams, for if dreams die, life is like a broken winged bird that cannot fly.
Langston Hughes
Langston Hughes
Thanks for your feedback, Bill. It was the linebreeding--most of it balanced through male/female lines--that I liked about the hypo with Seacliff. I need to do more research if the In Reality-Valid Appeal sire line works with Irish Tower and her female family.
Blizzard was by Wild Again. Wild Deputy may also be an option, but I haven't run the hypo or done the research yet.
Laurie
Blizzard was by Wild Again. Wild Deputy may also be an option, but I haven't run the hypo or done the research yet.
Laurie
So many pedigrees...so little time. (C)
Given that Galway Song's best offspring to date - per earnings - is Blizzard by Wild Again....I'd suggest you consider Wild Zone, standing in Texas. It's a nice match-up on paper to a stallion that's doing pretty well in a state hurt badly by the lack of slots legislation and in person he's a very good looking individual and seems to pass on his physical muscularity to his foals. It would nearly duplicate the cross that produced your mare's best offspring to date.
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Linda in TX
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