Pedigree Query

This is the "NOON" hour in the decision-making concerning my mare Captive Pro by Proper Reality ex Captive Great by GREAT ABOVE.

Without going into any further explanation why this mare hasn't been bred yet which is none of her fault, I would like to ask this really urgent question today. In fact, Monday is the last day in which I can decide whether I want to breed Captive this late in the season or just forget about it. I also have to weigh the question as to whether this stallion, AFTERNOON DELIGHTS. is worth $4K stud fee. One of the reasons for this choice is location; he's the closest of the better known stallions to where I live in Alabama [cost factor] Also, I believe, he's the only stallion which has appeal outside of the La breeding program with the exception perhaps of Leestown. Storm Day, also at Clear Creek, may do well in a couple of years, but I don't want to breed to him JUST because he's a Storm Cat. There are oodles of Storm Cats out there these days, so my guess is that he will most likely remain a regional stallion. Whether AFTERNOON DEELITES will stay at Clear Creek is an unknown at this point.
For now, I do not breed to sell at public auction and the foal will, should I keep her, most likely be born in Tx which may also be a factor?

For a quick overview, here are a few facts I have gathered. Captive didn't put the world on fire at the race track, but she did win two races, and she is from quite a decent female family. She ran 25 times and retired soud. Perhaps there may be 'some' residual benefit, should Giacomo do well today in the Belmont, but I'm not counting on it, lol.

Question: what do you think of this mating? Does his stud fee warrant the mating? What's good and what's not good about this pairing?

THANK YOU KINDLY,
SB
AFTERNOON DEELITES/CAPTIVE PRO DP = 4-6-6-0-0 (16) DI = 4.33 CD = 0.88; GSV = 63.52

SECRETARIAT 4S x 4d (1) (1) MEDAILLE D'OR // CAPTIVATING GAL
[dam of
CAPTIVE MISS b F 1989 ACAROID SECRETARIAT 20-8-2-2 $386,776

BOLD RULER 4s x 5S x 5D 3 2 (1) (1) LAUGHTER /SECRETARIAT
//SECRETARIAT


PRINCEQUILLO 6s x 6d x 6d 3 2 (0) (2) SOMETHINGROYA//SOMETHINGROYAL /PRINCESS MATOAKA

DISCOVERY 6s x 6d 3 2(0) (2) MISS DISCO // MY RECIPE /MISS DISCO

dam only

INTENTIONALLY 4D x 5d (1) (1) IN REALITY /TA WEE

ROUGHN TUMBLE 5d x 5D (1) (1) MY DEAR GIRL */MINNESOTA MAC

WAR RELIC 6D x 6d (1) (1) ILTIS /INTENT

Tail-female pedigree for CAPTIVE PRO

CAPTIVE PRO 1996 F PROPER REALITY
CAPTIVE GREAT 1987 M GREAT ABOVE
CAPTIVATING GAL 1980 M SECRETARIAT
PRINCESS RIBOT 1964 M RIBOT
PRINCESS MATOAKA 1956 M PRINCEQUILLO
JUDY-RAE * 1944 F BEAU PERE
BETTY DERR * 1928 F SIR GALLAHAD


9 generations linebreeding, 8 crosses and up only

TEDDY 16
PHALARIS 13
PLUCKY LIEGE 12
PHAROS 11
FAIR PLAY 11
SELENE 9
WHISK BROOM2 9
MAN O WAR 8

FWIW, I saw a Calbred Afternoon Deelites at the Barretts May sale that was spectacularly nice--just a beautiful mover. He sold for $200,000.

Now one horse doesn't make a sire and this one hasn't even done anything yet besides preview well and sell big. But at $4000, I'd look hard at AD if I had the option--provided he fit the mare physically of course.

Sysonby wrote:FWIW, I saw a Calbred Afternoon Deelites at the Barretts May sale that was spectacularly nice--just a beautiful mover. He sold for $200,000.

Now one horse doesn't make a sire and this one hasn't even done anything yet besides preview well and sell big. But at $4000, I'd look hard at AD if I had the option--provided he fit the mare physically of course.

Thanks for the info. I looked the horse up and here is his page.
Probably wouldn't have brought that much as a younger horse as dam line isn't all that fantastic. What do YOU think?
By the way, I have liked Craft Friend from the get go, but mainly because of his super looks, lol. He seems to be picking up though, but $7,500 stud fee is not in my range of affordability, I'm afraid. May be hunting for one of his daughters one of these days. Craft Prospector is going to retire soon, I"m afraid.

http://www.barretts.com/catalog/CATMAY05/pdf/349.pdf

http://www.barretts.com/sresults/rsmay05.htm

TWENTY HIGHEST PRICES PRICE
310 b.c., Siphon (BRZ) - Imperfect World $350,000
118 b.c., Dixie Union - Sparkle Colony $220,000
126 ch.c., Lexicon - Statute $200,000
349 BIG RED MOUNTAIN, ch.c., Afternoon Deelites - Lindsali $200,000
225 dk.b./br.c., Tiznow - Cinemine $195,000
119 NO BETTER TIME, ch.f., Two Punch - Spinnaker Sal $165,000
164 dk.b./br.f., Stormy Atlantic - Wicked Diablo $160,000
214 ch.f., Stephen Got Even - Bright Asset $160,000
110 dk.b./br.f., Capote - Sky Defender $150,000
229 b.f., Grand Slam - Clever Squaw $150,000
356 LUMINOUS PLACE, b.f., Out of Place - Luminous Prize $140,000
130 DONERELLA, dk.b./br.f., Doneraile Court - Summer Strike $110,000
128 KITTY STREET, b.f., Sir Cat - Stormy Street $100,000
149 b.c., Siphon (BRZ) - Tricky Laura $100,000
183 ch.f., Salt Lake - Amy Leighn $90,000
184 b.c., Crafty Friend - And Guess What $90,000
79 b.f., Lake Austin - Red Royalty $85,000
260 ACCELERATION, dk.b./br.f., Vision and Verse - Epithet $85,000
2 REWARDING RETURN, ch.f., Giant's Causeway - Many $80,000
Happy Returns
226 MON'S THE MAN, gr./ro.c., Maria's Mon - City Gold $80,000

Actually, that mare is a goldmine. Three of her foals have sold at auction: Bella Giornata by Afternoon Deelites for $850,000; Littlemiss Sparkle by Glitterman for $100,000 and Big Red Mountain by Afternoon Deelites for $200,000.

Since my last post, I had a chance to talk to my friend who currently has three Afternoon Deelites in training. He noted that his three are all different types: there is a big good looking colt, a small whippet like filly that he can't keep weight on and another filly that personifies average. That suggests that AD doesn't stamp his get and the mare is paramount --although it's still a small sample.

Sysonby wrote:*...three Afternoon Deelites in training. He noted that his three are all different types: there is a big good looking colt, a small whippet like filly that he can't keep weight on and another filly that personifies average. That suggests that AD doesn't stamp his get and the mare is paramount --although it's still a small sample.

*

Thanks for this info. Much obliged. The question here is: a] how are these three doing in training, and why isn't Bella..... listed on the Pedigree Query? But more importantly, I take it that these babies have taken after their dams? I'm asking because a stallion can be prepotent in as much as he passes on more of his ancestors than characteristics of himself, so it remains to be checked which is which, but in either case, he may not 'stamp' his mares apparently, so one must wonder, to what extent physical aspects are connected with racing talent and other genetic material. Secretariat most certainly didn't much resemble his sire Bold Ruler, neither his dam, Somethingroyal, lol.
Captive Pro, my mare, is a gorgeous dark bay mare and stands short of 16 hands. Her first baby is absolutely lovely, and it is precotious and big for its age, so it may be fast maturing. The baby is the spitting image of MOM. And while the sire wasn't a TB, he was close to it pedigree wise, so I believe I can tell a little bit about what she produces. Any idea how tall Afternoon Deelites is? If I remember well, he's not but 15.2, but I may be wrong. I'm going to the JC statistical page and check out his fertility profile as best I can.

Man, it's late, so I'm really wondering about breeding her this year, but then being in foal to a good horse may not make that much difference.
Northern Dancer was born May 27, lol. Oh well. That's what I get for dragging my feet.

SB

sb, at this late date they should give you a very big discount. It never hurts to ask and might help you with the decision.

Hi, sb. I liked Afternoon Deelites when I saw him a couple of years ago, and I understand when he was racing, he was quite the eyeful. Your mare's family has done well with Damascus stallions and with various families. Her family have been bred to nice stallions, so there may be an improvement in the catalog page in the next few years. A.D. is reportedly 16hh. I agree you should be able to save some money this time of year on the fee. And Louisiana breeders premiums would be a boost.

How have Proper Reality mares crossed
1. Proper Gamble by Prospector's Gamble-Bare it Properly by Proper Reality 2nd dam by Raise a Native won Beaumont S.- Gr. II, Cicada S.-Gr. III 3rd Prioress S.-Gr. I
3x4 In Reality 3x4 Raise a Native

2. Perfect Score by Personal Hope-Ten for Ten by Proper Reality 2nd dam by Arts and Letters won Bay Shore S.-Gr. III 5x5 Native Dancer

3. Pro Prado by El Prado-Mama's Pro by Proper Reality 2nd dam by Conquistador Cielo won Mountain Valley S., 3rd Arkansas Derby-Gr. II, 3rd Rebel S.

4. War's Prospect by Lion Cavern-Icy Reality by Proper Reality 2nd dam by Bandarilla(by Native Dancer)

5. Proper Prado by El Prado-Proper Banner by Proper Reality 2nd dam by Hoist the Flag 1st Prairie Mile S.

6. Heirloom Diamond by Grindstone-Proper and Saucy by Proper Reality 2nd dam by Mr. Leader stakes winner

A stallion who should cross well with your mare may be Easyfromthegitgo by Dehere-Montera by Easy Goer crossed with your mare you would get 3x4 In Reality and 4x4 Secretariat. Easyfromthe gitgo was a good runner and offers value at $3500 Afternoon Deelites seems to cross best with Northern Dancer and Mr. Prospector line mares Afternoon Deelites likes Nijinsky II when you consider Snack and Lovely Afternoon. Another horse you mare may cross well with is Lucky Lionel in Oklahoma. Proper Reality likes Raise a Native, Native Dancer, Northern Dancer and Great Above likes Mt. Livermore and that is why I would consider Lucky Lionel

Keith

Boy, it is really late in the season. I would put her under lights in Nov. and breed her in Feb. 2006.

aurora wrote:Boy, it is really late in the season. I would put her under lights in Nov. and breed her in Feb. 2006.

Yes, that's what I need to do or anybody who will own her at that time.

SB

Keith wrote:How have Proper Reality mares crossed
1. Proper Gamble by Prospector's Gamble-Bare it Properly by Proper Reality 2nd dam by Raise a Native won Beaumont S.- Gr. II, Cicada S.-Gr. III 3rd Prioress S.-Gr. I
3x4 In Reality 3x4 Raise a Native

2. Perfect Score by Personal Hope-Ten for Ten by Proper Reality 2nd dam by Arts and Letters won Bay Shore S.-Gr. III 5x5 Native Dancer

3. Pro Prado by El Prado-Mama's Pro by Proper Reality 2nd dam by Conquistador Cielo won Mountain Valley S., 3rd Arkansas Derby-Gr. II, 3rd Rebel S.

4. War's Prospect by Lion Cavern-Icy Reality by Proper Reality 2nd dam by Bandarilla(by Native Dancer)

5. Proper Prado by El Prado-Proper Banner by Proper Reality 2nd dam by Hoist the Flag 1st Prairie Mile S.

6. Heirloom Diamond by Grindstone-Proper and Saucy by Proper Reality 2nd dam by Mr. Leader stakes winner

A stallion who should cross well with your mare may be Easyfromthegitgo by Dehere-Montera by Easy Goer crossed with your mare you would get 3x4 In Reality and 4x4 Secretariat. Easyfromthe gitgo was a good runner and offers value at $3500 Afternoon Deelites seems to cross best with Northern Dancer and Mr. Prospector line mares Afternoon Deelites likes Nijinsky II when you consider Snack and Lovely Afternoon. Another horse you mare may cross well with is Lucky Lionel in Oklahoma. Proper Reality likes Raise a Native, Native Dancer, Northern Dancer and Great Above likes Mt. Livermore and that is why I would consider Lucky Lionel

Keith

Thanks for all you helpful information and suggestions. What I'd really like to do as a very small breeder, however, is find a stallion with a good number of races under his belt [soundness] and one which has won some G1 races. They are out there, but you have to sift through the piles and then try to get a good deal. There is more to breeding than just picking the right stallion. Farm management is another big issue and the fertility quota of any given stallion. One example of what I mean above is PRECOCITY I bred my other mare, Sidewalk Talk to in 02. The resuting lovely filly was lost at the breeding farm at the age of one month when she was either kicked or contracted septicemia on its own there, so there is no way of telling what she would have done. PRECOCITY was a total unknown at the time, but I liked just about everything about him, including his looks. Race record speaks for itself, and he had a couple of stakes/stakes placed winners in his first crop. Considering the modestly bred mares he got to court, he's done very well. Since Frank's death last year, he's been moved to NM, thus having slipped into a regional program,which will, more or less, seal his fate and rob him of his best chances as a wide open choice.

PRECOCITY (USA) b. H, 1994 DP = 10-4-7-0-3 (24) DI = 2.69 CD = 0.75 - GSV = 63.54 - 33 Starts, 9 Wins, 7 Places, 5 Shows Career Earnings: $1,835,796

http://www.seacliffstallions.com/precocity.html

Since that year I bred Sidewalk Talk to him, something interesting happened with Precocity's sire's family. Having been unraced, AFERD was not cedited with much of anything other than being a son HOIST THE FLAG. He did, however, produce some 20 stakes winner in a regional program [WA].

O.k. here goes it, lol.

DISCOVERY was, of course the sire of GEISHA , dam of NAIVE DANCER, as well as BOLD RULER"s dam MISS DISCO, fourth dam of Sidewalk Talk. He also produced MY RECIPE, dam of INTENTIONALLY.

SIDEWALK TALK is linebred to DISCOVERY:

DISCOVERY 7s x 7s x 7s x 5d (0) (3)

GEISHA / MY RECIPE /GEISHA //MISS DISCO*

But DISCOVERY also produced : CONNIVER br F 1944 THE SCHEMER CHALLENGER2 56-15-3-6 $227,825
who produced CLANDESTINE
sire of
SECRET RETREAT
dam of
AFERD (USA) H 1976 HOIST THE FLAG unraced
sire of PRECOCITY
and
TELL A SECRET (USA) dkb/br F 1977 SPEAK JOHN 49-9-?- $288,268
dam of
ROSES IN MAY2 (USA) blk/br C 2000 DEVIL HIS DUE 13-8-4-0 $5,490,187
and LISMORE LASS F 1989 VIGORS 35-7-0-0 $240,247
dam of:
DYNAMITE LASS dkb/br F 2002 DYNAFORMER VIGORS 7-2-3-0 $91,708 as of 6/5/05

Time will tell how Roses in May will do as a stallion.

SB

El Prado is too expensive but his son Mr. Livingston may be a good option for a Proper Reality mare and El Prado himself has done well with Great Above. Mr. Livingston is in Florida. Sadler's Wells bloodlines are doing great worldwide through his sons Montjeu and El Prado and Sadlers Wells is the broodmare sire of undefeated Divine Proportions who just won the French Oaks.

Keith

Precocity is one of the top stallions in NM at present, mostly due to the success of Zakocity who was competitive with such horses as Eddington and The Cliff's Edge, and is attracting a lot of attention due to his standing. Although being in NM probably earmarks him as a "regional" sire, NM is attracting a lot of very nice stallions (Devon Lane, Saratoga Six, Robyn Dancer, etc.) because they can get better mares here than in states such as California, Florida and Kentucky where the competition is much greater.

Laurie