Pedigree Query

Hi. I'm thinking of breeding this filly next spring. She'll probably run until February or March, then breed her to a suitable stud in Kentucky or Florida. She's a well bred mare, by Stormy Atlantic out of Serena's Sister, who is a full sister to Serena's Song. We found a small stakes race in Minnesota for her to run in a few months ago trying to get a little black type, and she ended up winning it, so her pedigree looks very good on paper. I want to have a foal by a commercial sire, whether I sell it or not as a yearling will depend on a number of factors, as is often the case. As for a stud fee, anything under $40,000 would probably be okay. Any help or suggestions would be appreciated.


thanks a lot.

hi chicago78

Just a couple of suggestions...

...which include some unproven commodities...some in Florida...and some in Kentucky.

For starters...

...I recommend the following for SERIOUS consideration in Florida.

1/ Full Mandate (by A.P. Indy) - 2005 stud fee $5,000 - I've seen MANY very good (or better) foals from his first crop...foals of 2005 (plenty of body and bone along with strong quarters & pasterns, lots of substance, good balance and proportion...and correct and handsome also). FM's a lot of horse on the end of a leadshank (although some might like to see a bit larger foot on him...but I expect that's the A.P. Indy). It would not surprise me if Full Mandate had a classic contender (or two) from his first crop. He could be very commercial when you have a yearling (then again he might not be, get the crystal ball out). He and his first crop of foals are too good to overlook...FM could prove to be special.

2/ Omega Code (by Elusive Quality) - 2005 stud fee $7,500 - An Elusive Quality out of a Deputy Minister and he could flyyyyyyy 1:07 3/5 as a 2-yo...and a G3 winner at Santa Anita (at age 3) to boot. He's very correct up front also. His gaskin is the kind that's often seen on very fast sprinters...maybe a bit straight or upright (for lack of a better description). That's argubly a matter of personal preference. He's being offered a HUGE opportunity...and in my opinion deservedly so.

3/ Montbrook - 2005 stud fee $20,000 - A very dependable sire that always seems to come up with a good one, but his knees must always be a consideration (the Buckpasser thing) in the mare selection process for him. Montbrook might not get you the classic horse but he can certainly get a quality runner, as he's proven time and again. Although it might be unimportant in the overall scheme of things, I recommend breed a mare with an attractive head to Montbrook (if the sales might be an option). Although he is a handsome guy...I've seen more than a few of his offspring that seem to lack in that particular looks category. But he can get a grand one...as evidenced by the Ashford/Coolmore young stallion Chapel Royal (by Montbrook). Montbrook to Stormy Venus would test the highly successful Buckpasser/Northern Dancer (or vice versa) cross.

In Kentucky...what about (for starters)...

1/ Chapel Royal (by Montbrook) - 2005 stud fee $10,000 - A VERY handsome (maybe grand is a better description) son of Montbrook. He could fly but never won beyond 6 furlongs (although he was 2nd in both the G1-Hopeful and the G1-Champagne...and 3rd in the G1-BC Juvenile)...regardless...I suggest he is a very interesting young stallion. Coolmore must like his chances...otherwise I expect they would have cut a son of Montbrook loose.

2/ Songandaprayer (by Unbridled's Song) - 2005 stud fee $10,000 - Sure to increase but how much...who knows. He gets very good sized...athletic looking fillies and colts. Very racy looking stock with good bone and plenty of leg. For what it's worth...the high at the recent OBS select yearling sale was a Songandaprayer (filly) at $190k. His undefeated 2-yo son What A Song was a $90k+- yearling pinhooked to become a $1.9mil 2-yo. Unfortunately that colt (who won all three of his starts) was euthanized after sustaining a sesamoid fracture...but it seems clear...Songandaprayer could be special.

3/ Northern Afleet (by Afleet) - 2005 stud fee $12,500 - We all know about his son Afleet Alex...regardless...NA is a very good sire that had limited opportunity but he can get you a small one...be careful if your filly's size or what she might get is a concern. I recommend Northern Afleet's probably still very good value...even if they bump him to $25k. But me personally, right now I'd go to the next choice first for $25k (Successful Appeal).

4/ Southern Image (by Halo's Image) - retiring to stud for 2006 - He was a brilliant fast horse that could carry it a mile. He offers the Halo connection that worked so well to get the Stormy Atlantic graded-stakes winner Indian Ocean (who is out of a Halo daughter). Furthermore, Southern Image's second dam is by Pleasant Colony, a sire who worked so well when crossed with a daughter of Northfields (the broodmare sire of your filly's second dam) to produce G1 winner and $1.6mil earner Forbidden Apple (who is out of North of Eden by Northfields). And let's not forget that SI's first dam is by Dixieland Band...who is arguably a VERY important broodmare sire. I recommend Southern Image at $12,500. He might stand for a bit more...but he's not a direct son of Halo (rather he's by Halo's Image, a son of Halo). Halo's Image (in Florida) might make sense for Stormy Venus if you decide to stay in Florida with her...but I believe Halo's Image is probably high at $10k. He doesn't seem to get enough stakes-winners to justify it...but he's continued to get a very good opportunity and could be heating up. You know how that can go...if you want to gamble.

4/ Successful Appeal (by Valid Appeal) - 2005 stud fee $25,000 - chicago78, you know my thoughts...I suggest he is INCREDIBLE value at $25k. He often gets a very sturdy...very solid...quite correct offspring. He has proven (from extremely limited opportunity, both quality and quantity-wise) that he can sire real racehorses. He did have his issues in the breeding shed in Florida...but Walmac-Lex has indicated they are dealing with them successfully...including acupuncture (supposedly for a back issue) which apparently he has responded positively to. He had a colic surgery late in the season also. If he's back to 100% for 2006 he is a MUST consider. He is a VERY special sire, in my opinion. No...he's even better than that...he's GREAT...All Things Considered.

5/ Alphabet Soup (by Cozzene) - 2005 stud fee $20,000 - It looks like Alphabet Soup continues to surprise many. He seems to be proving to be quite a consistent and solid sire. Very interesting and I expect worthy of some serious consideration...and his sales appeal should improve as a result of his accomplishments.

6/ Yes It's True (by Is It True) - 2005 stud fee $25,000 - Seems to be dependable as both a sales and racehorse sire. He can get a knockout looking...Wow kind of horse also. VERY interesting in my opinion.

7/ Pleasantly Perfect (by Pleasant Colony) - 2005 stud fee $40,000 - On the surface I find him difficult to recommend at $40k. But in the case of your filly he might be a perfect fit (pedigree-wise anyway). Consider this...arguably one of the premier (if not THE premier) mares by Northfields (who is the broodmare sire or your filly Stormy Venus' second dam (Imagining) is North of Eden. North of Eden is the dam of three G1 winners so far. Those three are $3.4mil earner Paradise Creek (by the deceased Irish River)...$1.6mil earner Forbidden Apple (by deceased Pleasant Colony)...and near $1mil earner Wild Event (by Wild Again). With that in mind...why not consider Pleasantly Perfect for your stakes-winning filly Stormy Venus...although you might have to be patient and wait for a three or four-year-old racehorse. But Stormy Venus should have something to say about how early it might be...probably a late two-year-old or three-year-old (at worst) is very realistic to expect. I expect that potential buyers (if you took the resultant yearling to auction) would look at it the same way...hmmm.

Or what about...from out of left field...the Longshot Sire Pick of the moment...

...8/ Wild Wonder (by Wild Again) - 2005 stud fee $5,000 - As you notice above...when Wild Again was in the mix with North of Eden (by Northfields) the result was a G1 winner of nearly $1mil...Wild Event.

Crazier things have happened...but clearly Wild Wonder (by Wild Again) has come up with two very serious race horses...G2 winner (and former $825k 2-year-old in training sales horse) Fusaichi Rock Star, and his full-sister Wild Fit (the recent G1-Del Mar Debutante winner)...certainly she's in the mix right now for the BC Juvenile Fillies. Such a victory should clinch an eclipse award for her...hmmm.

What do you think, chicago78?

Best to you.

Respectfully

Hi!

Stallions to consider

1. Jump Start by A.P. Indy-Steady Cat by Storm Cat winner of saratoga Special and 2nd Champagne S. crossed with Stormy Venus you would get
3x3 Storm Cat
3x4 Seattle Slew
4x5x5 Secretariat
5x5x5 Northern Dancer
Intense line breeding on great horses

2. Malibu Moon by A.P. Indy-Macoumba by Mr. Prospector sire of Champion 2 year old Declan's Moon. crossed with Stormy Venus you would get
3x4 Seattle Slew
4x5 Secretariat

3. Johar by Gone West-Windsharp by Lear Fan winner of Breeder's Cup Turf crossed with Stormy Venus you would get
4x5 Secretariat
6x6 Rough Shod II
5x6x6 Somethingroyal

4. Medaglia D'Oro by El Prado-Cappucino Bay by Bailjumper winner of $5,754,720 crossed with Stormy Venus you would get
4x5x5 Northern Dancer

5. Stravinsky by Nureyev-Fire The Groom by Blushing Groom European Champion Sprinter crossed with Stormy Venus you would get
3x5x5 Northern Dancer
3x4 Blushing Groom

6. Sligo Bay by Sadler's Well-Angelic Song by Halo winner of Hollywood Turf Cup crossed with Stormy Venus you would get
3x5x5 Northern Dancer
5x5 Almahmoud
3x5 Ballade
3x5 Halo

7. Street Cry by Machiavellian-Helen Street by Troy winner of $5,150,837 full brother to the dam of Shamardal who is by Giant's Causeway who is also a Storm Cat/Rahy cross similar to Stormy Venus


Keith

Thanks much FOS and Keith. appreciate the time and thought you both put into your responses. I've been doing some research on some of the same horses that you both suggestd, and actually have had Montbrook and Street Cry in my mind for her for a while.

First FOS, some thoughts on your suggestions.

Florida

1. Full Mandate. We have discussed him before on this board and the previous one before it shut down, and I'm not in love with him. I how good he looks, which is a big reason that he was a sales topping yearling, and understand thta he is passing them on to a number of his foals. What is hard for me to get past is that he was not a very fast horse. A plodder at best, and only won a grade 3 at the age of 5 at Arlington in a race over a horse that never won a photo in his life. Pedigree wise, he's amazing, so I wouldn't begrudge anybody for going to him, but I don't think he's for me.

2. Omega Code. I too think he's going to make it as a stud. He was a complete freak, and I love his pedigree. I think both Omega Code and Smarty Jones will make better studs than own sire, Elusive Quality. My grandfather's farm is going to breed a mare to him in 2006, just doubt I'll send Stormy Venus to him.

Another interesting point about these two studs is that they are out of Deputy Minister mares, and have thought of breeding her to a horse by him, either Silver Deputy or Touch Gold.

3. Montbrook. He's one of my favorite studs out there, and I'm strongly considering him for Stormy Venus as well as a mare that I plan to race in 2006, named Forever Brilliant. I like the cross that you talked about, and this filly does have a beautiful head. Our farm has a Montbrook foal on the ground that we like a lot, and a mare in foal to him this year. Plus he is right across the street from our farm, so I wouldn't have to pay to board her anywhere.

as for the Kentucky studs....

1. Chapel Royal. I like him quite a bit, too. I think it makes sense for Ashford to keep him, because they don't have a stud on the grounds with a pedigree anything like his, and he'll be an outcross for most of their clients' mares. I would probably rather go to Montbrook than him, because there are going to be hundreds of Chapel Royal's out of Storm Cat line studs, and I'd rather breed something a little different.

2. Songandaprayer. He hit it big in Florida, and now we'll see what his stud fee does in Kentucky. I'm a little nervous about him, because the family has been bred to sons of Unbridled a couple of times, and haven't done anything with the exception of Harlington, who I think won his first two races then got hurt on the triple crown trail.

3. Northern Afleet. Don't think Stormy Venus is big enough to breed to him.

4. Southern Image. It's too bad he wasn't retired last year, because I'm afraid he's going to be a forgotten horse, with not having run in close to two years by the time he starts breeding. He was an excellent racehorse, winning grade 1's at 7 furlongs and a mile and a quarter within a couple of months. He was bred by the same man, Arthur Appleton, that bred Stormy Venus, so it would be interesting to breed the two of them. The pedigree looks very good on paper.

I seem to like a lot of the horses that are retiring this year, and I was kind of asuming you'd write Saint Liam somewhere. He's also a grandon of Halo, and sending Stormy Venus to him would result in 3X5 inbreeding to Ballade, one of the most important broodmares of the last few decades.

4a. Successful Appeal. He's a great choice for this mare. I'm also excited about him, and think he's going to be one of the top sires in the country if he stays healthy. Most horses get big chances in Florida, but for whatever reason, he didn't get as many good mares, yet he's done an amazing job with them. I expect that he'll do great in Kentucky.

5. Alphabet Soup. He gets a lot of runners, and they're sound. I like him, just not sure how great he matches up with this mare.

6. Yes It's True. He's a good stud, and we have a January foal by him that we're excited about. I think that there are some other mares at our farm that match up better with him, but I am keeping him in mind for Stormy Venus in the future, as long as his fee doesn't get out of hand.

7. Pleasantly Perfect. I had not thought of this horse at all for Stormy Venus, but the more that i look at the pedigree and her running style, the more I like it. Stormy Venus ran once as a two year old in June, and we thought she was going to win or at least run well. She acted like a precocious horse, but she ran horrible, and had to have throat surgery after the race. Since she's come back, she has been a pretty good horse, and all three of her wins have come on the front end. Her last race, on saturday, was going 5/8ths on the grass, and I think this is probably how she wants to run. she had the outside post, and got outrun the first part and was a little wide, but started running on the fence towards the end of the race. This couldn't be a more different running style than Pleasantly Perfect, but it may match up well. I like the idea of sending Stormy Venus to him at some time, but want to get a look at one foal out of her before going to him.

8. Wild Event. Haven't thought about it, but will look into him. If I'm going to breed her to a son of Wild Again though, I like Offlee Wild, though the inbreeding to Seatlle Slew is a bit close.

and for Keith, thanks also for your suggestions.

I like Street Cry a ton. I think he will sire good ones on the dirt and turf. He has one of the best pedigrees in the world, and was an amazing horse. How many horses can you think of that were top horses at 2, 3, and 4? Not many these days. And with Stormy Venus already inbred to Northern Dancer, he adds two more strains of Almahmoud through Halo and Natalma, which is a very good thing.

The horses that I think I'll keep considering for her are Silver Deputy, Street Cry, Montbrook, Successful Appeal, Touch Gold, and Pleasantly Perfect.

thanks again.

sincerely,

Craig

hi chicago78

Must have been a miscommunication...I didn't recommend Wild Event. I used him as an example of a successful result of breeding Wild Again to North of Eden (by Northfields)...knowing that your filly's second dam is by Northfields (and figuring that maybe an injection of Wild Again might be worth consideration).

With that Wild Again...Northfields cross in mind, I made my Longshot Sire Pick of the moment...Wild Wonder (by Wild Again)...as a possible choice for Stormy Venus. As you might recall...Wild Wonder is the sire of G2 winner Fusaichi Rock Star and his sister, the current undefeated G1 winning 2-yo filly Wild Fit.

Just a fun pick of a stallion that most might figure is out-of-the-box...but when you consider that Wild Wonder might just be the sire of a two-year-old eclipse award winning filly (if she pulls off the G1-BC Juvenile Fillies)...I thought he might be interesting to at least mull over. Maybe he's a stretch...but who knows.

chicago78...you wrote "Alphabet Soup. He gets a lot of runners, and they're sound. I like him, just not sure how great he matches up with this mare" (Stormy Venus). The following might offer some insight...

...consider this...a filly by the name of Mystery Girl (who is by Stormy Atlantic) ran second to Wild Fit in the G1-Del Mar Debutante...Mystery Girl's dam is by Alphabet Soup...I say quite a compelling bit of information.

Arguably...if Mystery Girl wins the BC Juvenile fillies...she could be an eclipse winner. Maybe Alphabet Soup (her dam's sire) shouldn't be cut from the short list of stallion possibilities for Stormy Venus...hmmm.

Best to you.

Respectfully

Have you considered a son of Gone West? Speightstown is by Gone West-Silken Cat by Storm Cat 2005 Champion Sprinter he is 3x5 Secretariat. Rocking Trick a multiple Grade I winner in Argentina is by Phone Trick-Razzi Cat by Storm Cat. So based on these two horses I would consider

Came Home by Gone West-Nice Assay by Clever Trick.

I considered sons of A.P Indy as Grade I winner Sky Mesa is by Pulpit-Caress by Storm Cat as for Pulpit I would consider his son Essence of Dubai who stands for a reasonable $7500 but to go with proven stallions that is why I suggested Malibu Moon.

Another horse I would consider from the Gone West sire line would be El Corredor a son of Mr. Greeley. Crossed witth El Corredor you would get 5x5 on Dancer's Image.

Buddha is by Unbridled's Song-Cahooters by Storm Cat. Based on this cross you may consider a horse from the Unbridled line so you may consider
Songandaprayer by Unbridled's Song-Alizea by Premeirship
Birdstone by Grindstone-Dear Birdie by Storm Bird. That would give you a 3x4 cross on Storm Bird. Red Bullet by Unbridled-Cargo by Caro would be another horse to consider from the Unbridled sire line. I do like Montbrook alot but has he had much success crossed with the Storm Cat broodmare sire line.

Stormy Atlantic may nick different from his sire Storm Cat so he may cross with Montbrook but who knows. Alabama Nana comes from your mares female family and she is by a son of Thatch who is out of Thong so you may consider Johar as you would line bred on siblings Lt. Stevens and Moccasin.

I would consider Johar because he is a very well bred racing son of Gone West. Both of Johar's parents are millionaires. Johar's dam Windsharp has a Grade I winner by Storm Cat named Dessert.

Keith