Breeding advice on Smokester and Western Fame mares NEEDED!

[flashykatt]

Hi,

I'm new to TB race breeding (been breeding warmbloods for a while) and I am curious about which stallions would cross with these mares,

Both mares are out of a mare called La Contessa, who won money in England and in the USA (anybody have more info?) and who has several offspring who have won money. La Contessa is by Robellino. Smokin Contessa is by Smokester and Lil Mo Red is by Western Fame.

Both mares are BIG girls with easy going temperaments (guess temperament matters less than it does in riding horse breeding!).

I am trying to learn the ins and outs of TB breeding--there's a HUGE learning curve

I'd like to stick to California stallions for the actual breeding, but I'd be interested in hearing what "ideal" crosses there might be out there if money were no object.

I've been told I should breed to All Thee Power (by a farrier who shoes some of his offspring), to Comic Strip (by somebody who knew somebody who might be able to get a deal on the stud fee), and to Truckee (because apparently La Contessa has a Truckee son who is doing pretty good). And I read in an ad in the CTBA magazine that In Excess is a good cross with mares who have Roberto or Never Bend in them....so I thought that maybe Siberian Summer might be a good cross with the Smokester mare?

Oh, and my friend's husband, who knows nothing about horses, suggested I breed to Secretariet. Seems he's heard Secretariet is pretty famous. I politely thanked him and didn't mention the obvious difficulties involved.

Thanks in advance!

Lisa

[Sysonby]

Bearing in mind that there are two individuals in each equation and it's tough to generalize without seeing your mares, here goes:

All Thee Power is 21 years old (next week) and has one decent SW in all that time. His total earnings of $2.2 million wouldn't even put him in the top ten this year. He is only $1000 but frankly stud fees are usually the cheapest part of the whole transaction. He hasn't proven to be much of a racehorse sire.

Truckee is 14 (next week). He's had 2 very minor SWs although some nice hard knocking claimers. He's probably worth the fee ($3500) but you might be better served at that price going to an unknown that showed some class like Joey Franco or Reba's Gold. Chances are they will probably equal Truckee and the upside just might be enormous. It's your call and your risk.

Comic Strip has put the most money in the bank of the three this year but he also has had the most offspring, best mares and best financial backing too which is something to keep in mind.

This is purely my opinion but at a $5000 and below price point, I'd look at Formal Gold, Valid Wager, Bartok, Illinois Storm and maybe Event of the Year and Mud Route and see who suited the mares best on paper and in the flesh. I also looked at High Demand because the babies were reputed to be wonderful. Finally for a complete breed to race flyer, I'd look at Suances who has obscure European turf pedigree but was reputed to be the real deal when he was running and Breeders Cup material before he got hurt.

[flashykatt]

Thanks Sysonby, I was actually sort of joking about the advice I'd gotten from the farrier, etc.

I was thinking that maybe Siberian Summer or In Excess would be a good cross. I'd LIKE to stay under $15K for stud fees, and I may only breed one mare for race breeding and breed the other to one of the warmblood stallions I like.

You said it's easier if you can see the mares--can you tell me how to post photos?

The Smokester mare was inspected by some warmblood judges from Europe. Obviously they are looking for slightly different things than race breeders are, but they gave her a very good score for her strong rear end, and a very good score on her legs, commenting that they were good and correct with good bone.

I was hoping for some comments about La Contessa, since she was imported I'm less knowlegible (if that's possible!) about GB stallions than I am about USA stallions.

I know I picked the worst time of year to expect lots of replies, maybe when people will respond when they're done opening all their presents!

[Derring]

Oh, and my friend's husband, who knows nothing about horses, suggested I breed to Secretariet. Seems he's heard Secretariet is pretty famous. I politely thanked him and didn't mention the obvious difficulties involved.

Thanks in advance!

Lisa

This had me laughing out loud!

[Sysonby]

If it helps, here's the family circa 2003:

http://www.tattersalls.com/cat/autumnhit/2003/15.pdf

Obviously a very European oriented family and you probably should look at turf or perhaps a horse with a European background who can sire dirt and turf. Unusual Heat is the obvious one but I understand that his book is full. Perhaps Bartok?

http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/isd/st ... no=2442173

In Excess is $20,000 l.f. (although I've heard that the fee is negotiable if you are bringing mare power). Siberian Summer has certainly lived up to his $6500 fee.

One thing you could do if you believe in nicks and start by looking at the best runners out of Smokester and Western Fame mares. Chances are there are not many so then you'll need to look at Never Tabled and Gone West mares. FWIW, I do believe moderately in nicks. I find them interesting but I don't believe that they go both ways (Mr P x Seattle Slew is not the equivalent of Seattle Slew X Mr P--at least I don't think so). I think you also have to look hard at the individuals creating those nicks.

Good luck!

[tbrace]

You might consider Illinois Storm, as he has had very good runners on Turf and Dirt. One sold this October for $50,000, at Barrett's yearling sale. We saw him and he was magnificient. Big time pinhooker, John Brocklebank, bought him. He has a great record of picking winners, like Brother Dereck for instance. Good luck with your mare.

[erins isle]

This may help:
Your mares have a really good dam, she has a TF of 92.

I read in Racehorses of 1992:
Big, workman like filly, second foal, halfsister to 3yo Bold Look (Never So Bold) dam 1 m to 10,2 f winner: fairly useful form, won maiden auction at Lingfield and minor event at Yarmouth in the summer: best effort when never dangerous seventh of nine in slowly run Fillies' Mile at Ascot penultimete start: will stay beyond 1 m; probably act on any going: sold 52.000 guineas Newmarket Autumn Sales, reportedly to join D. Vienna in the States. Former trainer in UK: Barry Hills.
Her last performance was a second place and the race was won by Spectrum, who had a TF of 105p and he is now a succesful stallion.
If you like to see the performances of La Contessa: go to
http://www.racingpost.co.uk/news/home.sd
go to left database search for horse etc. For some topics you need a username and password, this is for free. Hope you find your info.

[SemparQuel]

I don't see much to sell in the female family of your mares.
Never the less, they may give a useful runner.
I suggest rustic, outbred, stamina-oriented stallions.

First I mention my 'pallino' KESSEM POWER.

Then MALEK, LEGEND OF RUSSIA and (for the CONTESSA) SOFT GOLD.

Or you may be willing to try the son of two stars DR. LITIN.

Or, if you heard speaking well about inbreeding to Mr. P, LAZY LODE for LIL.

Good luck.

[Keith]

For Smokin Contessa I would recommend the following stallions
Dumaani by Danzig-Desirable by Lord Gayle
Game Plan by Danzig-Cadillacing by Alydar
Truckee by Danzig-Embellished by Seattle Slew

For Lil Mo Red I would recommend
Dumaani line breeding Secretariat's dam Somethingroyal 5x5x5 through Secretariat and Sir Gaylord.

Keith

[Nijinsky]

I don't see much to sell in the female family of your mares.
Never the less, they may give a useful runner.
I suggest rustic, outbred, stamina-oriented stallions.

I AGREE....I might recommend for a useful runner ....TRUCKEE has worked so him or another SEATTLE SLEW line stallion. More than likey looking at the female family you will be wasting too much money no matter who you decide. This is a below average running family...just 1 black type horse in 3 generation pedigree
Now LA CONTESSA was a nice runner ssi 3.33, so there may be hope?

LA CONTESSA as a producer....

Copyright Bloodstock Research Information Services, Inc., 2005


LA CONTESSA (GB), 1992, Robellino- =Madame Bovary (Gb) by Ile De Bourbon.
YRS ST WN PL SH EARNED SR SSI
1998 Smokin Contessa,Dkbbr,f,Smokester 1 6 0 0 0 670 ( 53) 0.04
North America Dirt Sprints 5 0 0 0 500 ( 52)
North America Dirt Routes 1 0 0 0 170 ( 53)
DP = 4-2-9-3-0 DI = 1.40 CD = 0.39

1999 Cat's Contessa,Dkbbr,f,Distinctive Cat Unraced
DP = 2-1-10-1-0 DI = 1.33 CD = 0.29

2000 Truckee Warrior,Dk B/,c,Truckee 3 26 3 5 5 97,419 ( 93) 1.35
North America 2 YO Record 3 0 0 2 13,324 ( 77)
North America Turf Record 9 0 3 1 20,525 ( 91)
North America Dirt Sprints 5 0 1 2 17,224 ( 77)
North America Dirt Routes 12 3 1 2 59,670 ( 93)
North America Muddy/Sloppy 2 1 0 0 16,490 (87)
DP = 5-5-15-1-0 DI = 2.06 CD = 0.54 AWD = 8.33

2001 Lil Mo Red,Ch,f,Western Fame Unraced
DP = 5-2-12-1-0 DI = 1.86 CD = 0.55

2002 Bears Mo Red,Dkbbr,g,All Thee Power 1 4 1 0 0 6,325 ( 87) 0.56
North America 2 YO Record 4 1 0 0 6,325 (87)
North America Dirt Sprints 3 1 0 0 6,025 (87)
North America Dirt Routes 1 0 0 0 300 ( 56)
North America Muddy/Sloppy 1 0 0 0 500 ( 72)
DP = 5-2-8-1-0 DI = 2.20 CD = 0.69 AWD = 5.00
SIRE 0.98 Spi, 73str, 32%2yo, 8%1st, 23%Mud/110sts, 7%Tf/28sts, AWD 6.2
DAM(sp) 0.65 Dpi, 2 2yostr/1wnr, 40%Mud/5sts, 1 Tfstr/0wnr, 3 Rtestr/1wnr, AWD 7.5

2003 Unnamed,c,Chullo (Arg)
DP = 1-2-8-1-0 DI = 1.40 CD = 0.25
SIRE 0.00 Spi, 2str, 50%2yo, 50%1st, 0%Mud/0 0%Tf/0 6.0
DAM(sp) 0.65 Dpi, 2 2yostr/1wnr, 40%Mud/5sts, 1 Tfstr/0wnr, 3 Rtestr/1wnr, AWD 7.5

2004 Unnamed,f,Chullo (Arg) (Pending)
DP = 1-2-8-1-0 DI = 1.40 CD = 0.25

LA CONTESSA and her siblings.....

Copyright Bloodstock Research Information Services, Inc., 2005


=MADAME BOVARY (GB), 1986, Ile De Bourbon- =Coppice (Gb) by *Pardao.

YRS ST WN PL SH EARNED SR SSI
1991 =Bold Look (Gb),B,c,Never So Bold (Ire)
IN UNITED KINGDOM 2 11 1 1 0 8,177
DP = 9-3-4-2-0 DI = 3.50 CD = 1.06 AWD = 10.00

1992 La Contessa (Gb),B,f,Robellino 2 16 5 3 1 83,225 ( 93) 3.33
IN UNITED KINGDOM 1 5 2 1 0 13,431
North America Turf Record 12 5 1 0 69,475 ( 93)
North America Dirt Routes 5 0 2 1 13,750 ( 84)
North America Muddy/Sloppy 1 0 1 0 4,600 ( 73)
DP = 3-3-16-2-0 DI = 1.40 CD = 0.29 AWD = 8.32
At 4 2nd Novel Sprite Claiming S. (O) (35,315)

1993 =Attaproffitt (Gb),B,f,Batshoof (Ire) Unraced
DP = 7-1-10-6-0 DI = 1.18 CD = 0.38

1998 =Tomthevic (Gb),Ch,g,Emarati
IN UNITED KINGDOM 5 63 4 8 4 44,877
DP = 4-5-9-2-0 DI = 2.08 CD = 0.55 AWD = 5.01

2000 =Young Safawan (Gb),Ch,g,=Safawan (Ire)
IN UNITED KINGDOM 1 10 1 0 0 7,746
DP = 5-1-4-2-0 DI = 2.00 CD = 0.75 AWD = 10.00

2002 =Rose Bien (Gb),Dkbbr,f,Bien Bien
IN UNITED KINGDOM 1 1 0 0 0 0
DP = 2-1-11-5-3 DI = 0.63 CD = -0.27

The third Dam that would be listed in the catalog.....

Copyright Bloodstock Research Information Services, Inc., 2005


BRILLIANT THOUGHT, 1971, T. V. Lark- Pudding Lane by Decathlon.

YRS ST WN PL SH EARNED SR SSI
1977 Master Dance,B,c,Marshua's Dancer Unraced
DP = 16-16-4-0-0 DI = 17.00 CD = 1.33

1978 Bell Swinger,Ch,c,His Majesty 7 97 17 11 15 125,444 1.91
DP = 5-10-25-0-4 DI = 1.67 CD = 0.27 AWD = 8.35

1979 Royal Brainstorm,B,f,His Majesty 3 21 2 3 2 21,235 1.08
DP = 5-10-25-0-4 DI = 1.67 CD = 0.27

1981 Brilliant Ruler,Dkbbr,c,Iron Ruler 2 20 2 3 1 11,380 0.55
DP = 13-16-4-1-0 DI = 10.33 CD = 1.21 AWD = 6.50

1982 Foal Died
1983 Barren
1984 Barren
1985 Slipped

1986 Dancing Thought,B,f,Marshua's Dancer 3 6 0 0 0 2,525 ( 65) 0.37
North America 2 YO Record 1 0 0 0 0
North America Dirt Sprints 5 0 0 0 2,525 ( 65)
North America Dirt Routes 1 0 0 0 0
DP = 16-16-4-0-0 DI = 17.00 CD = 1.33
Sold at Hip # Sales Price Sire Avg Rank Stud Fee
KEESEP 1987 398 $15,000 $21,559 ylg ( 8/22) NA

1987 Barren

1988 Madame Bovary,B,f,Recusant 8 92 19 19 17 260,083 ( 91) 2.42
North America 2 YO Record 1 0 0 0 0 ( 64)
North America Turf Record 16 1 4 3 40,150 ( 89)
North America Dirt Sprints 12 1 1 2 7,003 ( 83)
North America Dirt Routes 64 17 14 12 212,930 ( 91)
North America Muddy/Sloppy 11 4 2 2 49,838 ( 91)
DP = 5-11-12-0-2 DI = 2.75 CD = 0.57 AWD = 8.24
Sold at Hip # Sales Price Sire Avg Rank Stud Fee
FTKNOV 1988 161 $5,200 $5,200 wlg ( 1/ 1) NA
KEESEP 1989 1513 $6,000 $4,000 ylg ( 1/ 2) NA

1989 State Approval,Ch,c,Raft 3 25 7 2 5 13,443 ( 89) 0.41
North America 2 YO Record * 4 2 1 0 2,318 ( 80)
North America Dirt Sprints 23 7 2 4 13,073 ( 89)
North America Dirt Routes 2 0 0 1 370 ( 80)
North America Muddy/Sloppy 4 0 1 0 475 ( 83)
DP = 8-12-5-5-0 DI = 3.00 CD = 0.77 AWD = 6.14
At 3 3rd Best Of Class $6250 Dist. #3 Clm S. (N) (2,200)
Sold at Hip # Sales Price Sire Avg Rank Stud Fee
FTKNOV 1989 296 $3,000 $3,000 wlg ( 1/ 1) $2,500

1990 Princess Tali,Ch,f,Talinum Unraced
DP = 9-14-11-0-0 DI = 5.18 CD = 0.94
Sold at Hip # Sales Price Sire Avg Rank Stud Fee
KEESEP 1991 2155 $16,000 $24,054 ylg (13/31) $15,000

1991 Timeless Thought W,Ch,c,Timeless Moment 4 31 2 2 4 16,607 ( 85) 0.33
North America 2 YO Record 4 0 0 0 1,320 ( 67)
North America Turf Record 3 0 1 1 2,102 ( 80)
North America Dirt Sprints 7 0 0 1 1,640 ( 75)
North America Dirt Routes 21 2 1 2 12,865 ( 85)
North America Muddy/Sloppy 4 0 0 0 141 ( 70)
DP = 6-18-8-0-0 DI = 7.00 CD = 0.94 AWD = 8.50
Sold at Hip # Sales Price Sire Avg Rank Stud Fee
KEESEP 1992 2627 $15,000 $36,900 ylg (19/25) $12,500

1992 Barren
1993 Desiard,B,g,Nalees Man 10 151 21 26 24 197,272 ( 93) 0.73
North America 2 YO Record 1 0 0 1 1,460 ( 75)
North America Turf Record 11 0 1 3 11,448 ( 93)
North America Dirt Sprints 31 3 7 6 33,863 ( 85)
North America Dirt Routes 109 18 18 15 151,964 ( 91)
North America Muddy/Sloppy 14 0 2 4 12,256 ( 89)
DP = 10-17-3-2-0 DI = 8.14 CD = 1.09 AWD = 8.24


1994 Unnamed,f,Nalees Man
DP = 10-17-3-2-0 DI = 8.14 CD = 1.09

1996 Plain Fast,B,c,Plain Dealing Unraced
DP = 11-13-6-0-0 DI = 9.00 CD = 1.17

[louis finochio]

Dont breed your mares to Illnois Storm, as he has had fertility problems.

Both Benchmark and Unusual Heat a quality proven sires, and both have out bred their mediocre mares by a country mile.

If TB breeders had more non-(Phalaris) sire line stallions available, it would make it better for those already watered down (Phalaris) mares.

[Nijinsky]

I wouldn't personally OVERBREED this mare.....meaning never put more into a stud fee than you will get out of it. The mares is too weak for Ca. market.

Unusual Heat is booked full for 2006 at $12,000.....Benchmark ( stud fee $7,500 ) is a good choice although I do not see this mares foals selling for much, if that. For racing maybe, but not selling.....I personally would go to Truckee or Slewvescent and be on the safe side if I were going to race it

[Nijinsky]

Actually I think your best bet would be Thisnearlywasmine By Capote. I have seen him in person great temperment nicely built and his stats are pretty good for a sire who had hardly any mares and not the best bred to him. Here is his link for only $2,000

http://www.thoroughbredinfo.com/showcas ... asmine.htm

[zinn21]

I second Nijinsky's recommendation. As for All Thee Power he never got but a handful of mares and few were of quality. He has sired some very good very fast horses from limited opportunities.