Saint Ballado mare advice please

[jagger]

My wife just bought a Saint Ballado mare at the FT sale. She is unraced and not in foal. Saintly Magic, Hip 656. Would welcome suggestions for stallion selection which we would like to make soon while my wife is still in Lexington. Probably would like a proven stallion in the 15k to 25k range for commercial interest.

Thanks for any suggestions.

[LSB]

No suggestions, but I just wanted to say that I watched your mare sell and she's a real beauty.

[hpkingjr]

Take a look at the hypo mating of Grand Reward with Saintly. It would play full brother and sister, Saint Ballado and Glorious Song 2x4. With them you add Storm Cat and Serena's Song. With all the Halo (and I love the Halo), the foal might be like crossing Lassie with a Pit Bull: It might chew your leg off but it could sure run for help. I believe Grand Reward is booked full but you never know till you ask.

[BJ]

My wife just bought a Saint Ballado mare at the FT sale. She is unraced and not in foal. Saintly Magic, Hip 656. Would welcome suggestions for stallion selection which we would like to make soon while my wife is still in Lexington. Probably would like a proven stallion in the 15k to 25k range for commercial interest.

Thanks for any suggestions.

Was she sold as a broodmare prospect? Did they say what was wrong with her that she is unraced?

I would be very hesitant to breed a 3 y/o and probably not even a 3 y/o. I'm sure there will be many on both sides of the issue, but there is a very high risk w/breeding a mare that young. The pelvis bones don't even close until a horse is 3-4 years. Many of her other bones are not mature yet either. The average horse fully matures at about 6 years old, give or take a few months.

I am hopeful you will wait a year. It will give you time to make a healthier, more thoughtful decision to bring a talented, sound foal into the world. Best of luck to you.

The Schedule of Growth-Plate Conversion to Bone

The process of converting the growth plates to bone goes from the bottom of the animal up. In other words, the lower down toward the hoofs you look, the earlier the growth plates will have fused; and the higher up toward the animal's back you look, the later. The growth plate at the top of the coffin bone (the most distal bone of the limb) is fused at birth. What that means is that the coffin bones get no taller after birth (they get much larger around, though, by another mechanism). That's the first one. In order after that:

Short pastern - top and bottom between birth and 6 months.

Long pastern - top and bottom between 6 months and one year.

Cannon bone - top and bottom between 8 months and 1.5 years

Small bones of the knee - top and bottom of each, between 1.5 and 2.5
years

Bottom of radius-ulna - between 2 and 2.5 years

Weight-bearing portion of glenoid notch at top of radius - between 2.5 and 3 years

Humerus - top and bottom, between 3 and 3.5 years

Scapula - glenoid or bottom (weight-bearing) portion – between 3.5 and 4 years

Hindlimb - lower portions same as forelimb

Hock - this joint is "late" for as low down as it is; growth plates on the tibial and fibular tarsals don't fuse until the animal is four (so the hocks are a known "weak point" - even the 18th-century literature warns against driving young horses in plow or other deep or sticky footing, or jumping them up into a heavy load, for danger of spraining their hocks).

Tibia - top and bottom, between 3 and 3.5 years

Femur - bottom, between 3 and 3.5 years; neck, between 2.5 and 3 years; major and 3rd trochanters, between 2.5 and 3 years

Pelvis - growth plates on the points of hip, peak of croup (tubera sacrale), and points of buttock (tuber ischii), between 3 and 4 years.

And what do you think is last? The vertebral column, of course. A normal horse has 32 vertebrae between the back of the skull and the root of the dock, and there are several growth plates on each one, the most important of which is the one capping the centrum. These do not fuse until the horse is at least 5 ½ years old (and this figure applies to a small-sized, scrubby, range-raised mare.

The taller your horse and the longer its neck, the later the last fusions will occur. And for a male - is this a surprise? - you add six months. So, for example, a 17-hand Thoroughbred or Saddlebred or Warmblood gelding may not be fully mature until his 8th year - something that owners of such individuals have often told me that they "suspected").

http://www.equinestudies.org/knowledge_base/ranger.html

[LSB]

With all the Halo (and I love the Halo), the foal might be like crossing Lassie with a Pit Bull: It might chew your leg off but it could sure run for help.

[jagger]

So, I guess this means Vindication is out too. We were offered a season in his "closed" book by a Hill 'n Dale agent. Great reply by hpkingjr

[mikec]

This may be a bit off the beaten path but I sort of like During. I think he gives it a nice clean look while giving you a Bold Ruler / Bold Lad cross.

[madelyn]

I rather like her with Harlan's Holiday. At $17.5, he is pretty much on the price point for this mare.

[LSB]

I rather like her with Harlan's Holiday. At $17.5, he is pretty much on the price point for this mare.

I've been told that the rule of thumb is that a mare should be bred to a stallion who stands for 1/3 of her value. Which puts this mare in the 25K range.

On the other hand, I tend not to put much faith in other people's rules.

[jagger]

So Vindication @ 60K is out of the question - even for a Saint Ballado mare? Unless we could get them to come down a little. Northern Afleet @ 20K seems reasonable. Tiznow and Speightstown @ 40K? The linebreeding to Tiznow and Speightstown is interesting.

My wife is returning from Lexington soon. She will be very tired but also very happy. She says Saintly Magic looks magnificent. She is very big - estimates as big as our Tennessee Walker (can I say that on this forum) gelding who is 17h. She is very correct. We will not be getting her in foal and selling her in the November sale. She says Northern Afleet is very impressive. Have to make a decision soon.

[madelyn]

ah the rules thing.. from the other perspective, there is a view that a mare should see a stallion who stands for a quarter of her value..

again, rules.

But No Matter how you feel about rules, spending 40 or 60K for a studfee for this maiden filly would be "overbreeding" her.

[halo]

FWIW, which is probably nothing, a Saint Ballado mare has already produced a nice stakes winner with Northern Afleet. Id personally be afraid to double up on the Ballade as everyone seems to like doing on paper, as Ballade was quite crooked and threw the same.

[Morningside]

if you talk to millridge, they'll tell you to breed to a stallion 1/7 of the mare's value...
my thought on that issue is this: you want to balance your investment on your mare with your investment on the stallion. so if you are depreciating a young mare (less than 12yo) over 7 years, breed her to a stallion 1/7 of her value, but if you're depreciating an older mare (12 years old or over) over 3 years, then breed her to a stallion 1/3 of her value.
i don't know how much your mare went for, but around the price range you discussed, i think silver deputy offers good value. his fertility has dropped, and therefore his fee as well (you might even be able to get him for 25K). and since you have a young open mare, i think it would be ok.

[LSB]

if you talk to millridge, they'll tell you to breed to a stallion 1/7 of the mare's value...

Interesting...with a number like that, it would be hard to see how the AP Indys, Kingmambos, and Giants Causeways of the stallion world would ever get full books. Are all the mares being bred to Ghostzapper this year worth 1.4M? Smarty Jones's mares worth 700K? It's an optimistic thought but I'm not sure I see it working in practise.

[jagger]

Halo,

Just trying to understand you post about doubling up on Ballade. Do you mean, avoiding doubling up on Halo? Our mare, Saintly Magic, does have very correct legs. So, back to the doubling up thought, Halo 3x3 is not a good idea? More Than Ready gets Halo 3x3 but quite a bit of other good stuff too and Alan Porter's recommendation for mares for MTR include many sires in SM pedigree as well as crosses, thought late, with La Troienne, which he advocates as well.

Thanks for the input. Northern Afleet is on our list. Tiznow, Sky Mesa and Speightstown.