The Mans not doing too well this year.

[Tappiano]

Now, maybe all those moaners who screamed every time a mare was retired and announced as going to Storm Cat in the last 2 years will get it. He was getting OLD. He wasn't going to be around for ever. IF you were going to go, you had to go NOW.

So retire a filly and breed to a stallion because he won't be around long...who cares what you might get, it's Storm Cat. Why not breed to the best stallion for the mare, regardless of how old he is or long he will be around. Oh I forgot there is business involved, which doesn't involve breeding and raising the best race horse possible.

When Secretariat's last crop were two year olds one of the fillies was never even put into training because "she was too valuable". She turned out to be a dud of a producer though. I don't recall if she was Risen Starlet or something like that, but I remember thinking there were enough of his daughters and this one didn't seem to have a very strong female family.

[soundfast]

I would like to know why people want to breed to stallions whose stud fees are higher than their average earnings per runner. The odds are against making money breeding to Storm Cat,A.P. Indy,Smart Strike,Unbridled's Song,Dynaformer,Distorted Humour,etc. There is no stallion standing with average earnings per runner at $141K let alone the fees they stand at. Also there is the fact that most of these stallions tend to sire runners who are less durable than average. Lifetime starts per runner for Storm Cat is 11,A.P. Indy 12,Smart Strike 14,Unbridled's Song 11,Distorted Humour 12,Kingmambo 11. Dynaformer is not bad with 18. According to Thoroughbred Times average was 21 not so long ago. Slew City Slew has 21 and he sired the great Lava Man but some people do not consider him because his stud fee did not go to a ridiculous level after Lava Man started winning millions. KY seems to be the only state where stallion owners can charge huge fees and get away with it. I would never judge a stallion by his stud fee but by the soundness of his offspring and his average earnings per runner in relation to his stud fee + his % of winners to runners.

[London]

I would like to know why people want to breed to stallions whose stud fees are higher than their average earnings per runner. The odds are against making money breeding to Storm Cat,A.P. Indy,Smart Strike,Unbridled's Song,Dynaformer,Distorted Humour,etc. There is no stallion standing with average earnings per runner at $140K let alone the fees they stand at.

You breed to these stallions to hit commercial homeruns, not breed a horse who's going to make 70 starts in 5k claimers.

[Sam]

I would like to know why people want to breed to stallions whose stud fees are higher than their average earnings per runner. The odds are against making money breeding to Storm Cat,A.P. Indy,Smart Strike,Unbridled's Song,Dynaformer,Distorted Humour,etc. There is no stallion standing with average earnings per runner at $140K let alone the fees they stand at.

You breed to these stallions to hit commercial homeruns, not breed a horse who's going to make 70 starts in 5k claimers.

Never mind that they have foals who are worth more in the breeding shed then on the track so they are run as lightly as possible (or not run at all in some of the mares cases because an unraced broodie is forgiven but an 0-for-10 isn't) for maximum exposure (read "cherry picked spots for black type) then retired.

You don't buy a Storm Cat because you think you're going to win the Derby/BCClassic/DWC and make $10 million. You buy a Storm Cat mare hoping to win a G1 then start pumping out $2m yearlings or a Storm Cat stallion so you can win the Haskell and retire to a $50k stud fee bred to 150 mares/year.

[freshman]

So the ideal retirement would be a pasture with some mares? Or would that be too stressful?

I think it would depend on the individual stallion. Most of these stallions have been managed in ways that would make them unsuitable for life with a herd of mares, or even a single mare or just a turnout buddy. After spending twenty and more years in one routine--by himself at all times unless breeeding mares in a very, very controlled enviroment--then learning a new way of life is very difficult, if not impossible. They just don't have the social skills to interact with other horses in many cases.

As nice as it is to want a nice retirement for these stallions, including Storm Cat, I'm not sure that, in general, a pasture full of female companions would likely be more like torture than a nice way to spend their last days. In a herd, these guys might be a danger to the other horses, like try to savage them, etc, but would likely be beat-up unmercifully themselves. One stallion is no match for a herd of mares that don't care for how he's acting. They are not shy.

I think it would take a lot of work to get an aged, singley-kept breeding stallion used to any companionship at all. It would be stressful for the stallion, at best for quite a while, and then no gaurantees that it would ever get better, no matter what efforts were made to get him to enjoy the interaction. In the meantime, and maybe forever, the stallion would be made pretty unhappy in most cases.

But I don't know much about how these pensioned stallions are managed, though. Again, it probably depends on the individual stallion and the individual farm I get the idea that they aren't usually integrated into any type of herd situation. I imagine that life carries on pretty much unchanged, besides the trips to the shed. This might be kindest.

But what to do with a horse that wears himself out in the spring? Move them to a quiter part of the farm? I doubt they let him jump mares at all; many have physical limitations that make breeding physically impossible or harmful to his old joints, etc. What then?

The whole thing is interesting to me. I would love to hear more from those that have experience with how these pensioners are managed!

[soundfast]

I guess most people who breed to these high stud fee stallions either do not care how high the odds are against making money and most think they can turn a profit at the yearling sales but the truth is most of these people lose money and a lot of the offspring of these stallions are not successful at stud and not all make money with the mares either. Before breeding to one of these stallions they should find out how many have actually turned a profit. Some people probably want a tax write off. Some people would be much better off facing the reality that these stallions do not have low starts per runner because their offspring win big purses and retire early but because a high percentage of their offspring are unsound and when bred will produce more unsound horses. The Green Monkey had 3 starts and did not win even one. His sire Forestry's offspring average 9 starts lifetime. A lot of sons of these stallions will not ever earn what they cost at sales,on the track,or in the shed and the breed will be worse off for them having stood at stud. Anybody who bothers to check into all the offspring from these stallions will learn that most of their offspring will not be making money for anybody. Some low stud fee stallions have produced great horses and sound horses and the odds are in favor of making money. The greedy stud owners will the high stud fees just love those deep pocket mare owners who either do not know or do not care how unsound the foals are or who suffers as long as it is not them. Horses are alive and unsound horses suffer but then those people with $ signs in front of their eyes do not really care about the horses or other people. I care about horses and soundness counts long term for the sake of the horses and for racing itself. These unsound producing horses produce a small few that are famous and win more than their stud fee and these are the kind of horses most people will not get. There are a lot more that do not stay sound long enough to win. More and more people will suffer losses breeding to these horses as buyers get more and more fussy and less inclined to cost themselves huge amounts of money buying offspring of these horses. Lava Man is not a $5K claimer and his sires stud fee is $6K. There a lot of top notch horses sired by sound producing stallions with reasonable stud fees. Silver Deputy $30K has 18 starts per runner (has sired Posse,Silverbulletday,etc.) average earnings per runner are more than 3 times his stud fee. There are many good sires of great horses whose offspring are sounder and their stud fees low enough to give someone else the odds in their favor for making money.

[Sock Monkey]

I'm sure it depends somewhat on the farm, but most pensioned stallions have no changes in routine - except they don't go to the breeding shed. Some farms will let them stay out more, too.

I don't know of anyone who has retired a stallion and then turned him out with a herd. It sounds like a good way to get somebody seriously injured.

And, remember, it's not like stallions live in complete isolation. They aren't turned out with other horses, but they generally can see, smell, hear, other horses.

[geowarrior]

It was only a half serious question, I was pretty sure they weren't turned out with a herd, but now you've caught my attention. It sounds like being pensioned is pretty lonely for them.

I know that they can see and sense all that's going on. From what I understood, that was the reason Seattle Slew was moved from Three Chimneys, ecause he'd get excited every time he heard the mares and they were afraid he'd undo his surgery. I always thought that might have been a mistake - to take him away from his familar environment, because he died at his new location not long after.

[soundfast]

When I got my stallion I was told you could not keep a stallion with any other horses. He was not allowed to be with other horses only allowed to see them across a fence. I did not listen to that advice.He is now living with a young mare(his wife),yearling filly(acting father but not sire of), and my 33 year old mare. He is very happy and they are pretty happy also. He is the romantic type and tells his wife how beautiful she is. I think most stallions would probably like to have some companionship whether its an old mare or a goat or some other creature. Some stallions probably get attached to their grooms like Man O' War. Every horse is an individual so there are probably some that prefer to be alone. A horse should not just be stuck in some out of the way corner when he gets old he should be given whatever it takes to keep him happy.