Perhaps a solution would be to morph the site so that individual mare owners can recount their experience with a particular stud. The summarization of many attempts into a one line "fertility issue" may be the root of the problem. If however, many mare owners tell their tale of five cover attempts then that is interesting info for a mare owner. If there is only one story "under a stallion's name" not too worrisome.
One qualification I would put on any post would be that if you feel obligated to mention a stallion or a farm name, you should feel obligated to mention a mare name or your name. Fair is fair.
In concept though I like the idea of a place where mare owners can go to get this information. I know from experience that you can not always count on the words of the stud farm.
stallions with fertility/libido issues...
Moderators: Roguelet, WaveMaster, madelyn
I hope the owner of ATR – whoever that may be – realizes that his reputation is now shot as an agent in Kentucky. No stud farm wants to do business with someone who consistently bad-mouths their stallions and every major farm in Kentucky is aware of his website because he’s so frequently said something offensive and potentially damaging about one of their stallions. This infertility list is just another example. Mare management is a major part of getting a mare pregnant and keeping her pregnant. How many of these “infertility claims” are going to be made by mare owners who have an old, barren mare in poor condition and decide to blame the stallion for their own poor mare care? Or they are too cheap to use vets or even tease their mares properly, or they board at the cheapest farm possible, or throw the mare out in a field after her first pregnancy check and forget about her till next spring. These are not hypothetical situations, these have all happened and fertile stallions have been blamed for an empty mare. Remember, the stud farm doesn’t make money if the mare doesn’t get in foal. That’s why they have 3 or 4 or 5 breeding sessions a day, to get these mares bred when they need to be bred. To accuse any farm of conspiring to hide a stallion’s breeding issues is being a little paranoid.
[quote="Coaltown"] Mare management is a major part of getting a mare pregnant and keeping her pregnant. How many of these “infertility claims” are going to be made by mare owners who have an old, barren mare in poor condition and decide to blame the stallion for their own poor mare care? Or they are too cheap to use vets or even tease their mares properly, or they board at the cheapest farm possible, or throw the mare out in a field after her first pregnancy check and forget about her till next spring. These are not hypothetical situations, these have all happened and fertile stallions have been blamed for an empty mare. Remember, the stud farm doesn’t make money if the mare doesn’t get in foal. That’s why they have 3 or 4 or 5 breeding sessions a day, to get these mares bred when they need to be bred. To accuse any farm of conspiring to hide a stallion’s breeding issues is being a little paranoid.[/quote]
Agreed. A breeding farm doesnt see a dime for a ship in that hasnt been teased, palped, cultured but the owner is convinced she is ready for a stud, let alone be covered. In fact it costs money, is time consuming, very dangerous, and a waste of Everyones time.
If a mare owner calls with concerns or questions many if most stud farms are forth coming with information. There is no reason not to be.
Mare management is a HUGE part of it. I have seen mares come in so GLOWING with show sheen, brand new neck strap, daddled to the 9s'.. BREAKING DOWN on the path to the breeding shed, that don't get in foal. On the other hand I have seen them come in 4 or 5 ribs sticking out, mud and grit all over, and the stallion looks at them and 14 days later they are in foal. And god willing there are some farm owners that don't have a clue and have lovely foals the next spring..Regumate?? Whats that? What a progesterone level?
Agreed. A breeding farm doesnt see a dime for a ship in that hasnt been teased, palped, cultured but the owner is convinced she is ready for a stud, let alone be covered. In fact it costs money, is time consuming, very dangerous, and a waste of Everyones time.
If a mare owner calls with concerns or questions many if most stud farms are forth coming with information. There is no reason not to be.
Mare management is a HUGE part of it. I have seen mares come in so GLOWING with show sheen, brand new neck strap, daddled to the 9s'.. BREAKING DOWN on the path to the breeding shed, that don't get in foal. On the other hand I have seen them come in 4 or 5 ribs sticking out, mud and grit all over, and the stallion looks at them and 14 days later they are in foal. And god willing there are some farm owners that don't have a clue and have lovely foals the next spring..Regumate?? Whats that? What a progesterone level?
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RandomThoughts
- 2yo Maiden
- Posts: 92
- Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2007 6:01 pm
- Location: Mid-Atlantic
Rahy85: Thanks for the good news on Cherokee Run
Rahy85 wrote:Congratulations, but your case is definitely antecdotal... He had less than half his mares in foal as of a week ago (23 of 47 to be exact). Darley was very upfront and honest about his situation.
My pregnant mare is G1 placed. I like foals that are rare and valuable.
The talented ones will give you an early hint.
Crystal wrote:
A breeding farm doesnt see a dime for a ship in that hasnt been teased, palped, cultured but the owner is convinced she is ready for a stud, let alone be covered. In fact it costs money, is time consuming, very dangerous, and a waste of Everyones time.
A mare owner doesn't get reimbursed by a stud farm that costs them cycles by causing them to repeatedly send totally prepped mares to studs that are firing below normal whose condition is not farm-announced to the mare owner.
I can cite specific cases in NY that would hit very close to home if you want.
ct, I wasn't trying to be overly critical of a mare owner, only pointing out mare management plays a big part (as everyone knows). Not everything goes perfect each time. I also firmly believe some mares and stallions are just not compatiable. Questions are always asked and fingers are always pointed if a perfectly healthy mare comes in with a 40 ready to OV on the way home and the dismount sample looks like party and the mare doesn't catch.
However, my point comes back to lack of communication between a mare owner/stallion management. A farm does its best (on both sides) to present healthy horses ready to go to the breeding shed, but things happen. It just seems like a kick in the pants when you read about a stallion having issues relating to fertility on the internet when you look at his book each day and there is a high percentage of mares (that you know of) in foal. If there is a issue we try to do our best to help the mare owner. Thats just us, I cant speak for other farms.
The best news of the day is from a mare owner nice enough to call and let us know their mare is in foal. If its not good news, I can only do what I can to help.
Again, no offense to anyone "close to home", but if I can do something during the season to make a breeding go easier for both parties, I would try.
However, my point comes back to lack of communication between a mare owner/stallion management. A farm does its best (on both sides) to present healthy horses ready to go to the breeding shed, but things happen. It just seems like a kick in the pants when you read about a stallion having issues relating to fertility on the internet when you look at his book each day and there is a high percentage of mares (that you know of) in foal. If there is a issue we try to do our best to help the mare owner. Thats just us, I cant speak for other farms.
The best news of the day is from a mare owner nice enough to call and let us know their mare is in foal. If its not good news, I can only do what I can to help.
Again, no offense to anyone "close to home", but if I can do something during the season to make a breeding go easier for both parties, I would try.
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progenytest
- Suckling
- Posts: 11
- Joined: Wed Jun 24, 2009 5:42 pm
- Location: Australia
Thank God for American Thoroughbred Review.
The only honest person in a sea of Rogues
Stud farms pass off Unsound Unproven Unviable crap every day of the week.
The only one not in bed with the advertising industry
PS All freshman sires should be for free because the downgrade mares 90% of the time.
Yearling sales another scam that everybody knows except the freshfaced enthusiast.
The only honest person in a sea of Rogues
Stud farms pass off Unsound Unproven Unviable crap every day of the week.
The only one not in bed with the advertising industry
PS All freshman sires should be for free because the downgrade mares 90% of the time.
Yearling sales another scam that everybody knows except the freshfaced enthusiast.
Rahy wrote:
If the ATR list is based on verifiable documentation, I have no problem but if even one stallion on the list is there based on undocumented/inconclusive evidence the list represents an agenda beyond fertility IMO.
Are you purporting to know what sort of documentation substantiates the ATR list?
If the ATR list is based on verifiable documentation, I have no problem but if even one stallion on the list is there based on undocumented/inconclusive evidence the list represents an agenda beyond fertility IMO.
Ct... Good point. Though a problematic stallion may eventually get a significant percentage of his mares in foal, heat cycles are expensive these days when you figure palps, ultrasounds, uterine flushes, van rides, etc. Also, a difficult stallion can push a number of his mares back onto May/June cover dates, invariably leading to an open year in the immediate future. No doubt, mare management is crucial... but all the mare management in the world won't keep investors from slipping deeper into red ink when stallion managers fail to disclose shortcomings, no matter how small or insignificant.
It sounds like Claiborne has done a good job of managing WF... but he's likely only breeding 2 mares per day, which needs to be disclosed as it can limit the number of time slots available, leading to missing a mare's optimal time for breeding, which is obviously important with WF.
It's already incredibly tough to keep people in this game... Why on earth would we not want full disclosure to keep newcomers from walking away with a bad taste in their mouth?? ATR clearly gave Mr. Sams a platform to divulge all relevant details, but he declined. That says a lot in and of itself. There's obviously something unique about WF in that Claiborne feels like he needs to be bred right on top of an ovulation... so then what's the harm in disclosing the reasoning so investors can make up their own minds? Yes, some investors don't have the medical background to interpret a statement from Claiborne, but that's not an excuse to misrepresent a horse as being within normal reproductive parameters.
I would agree that the vast majority of stallion managers are willing to disclose problems, but if only 10% of all breeding contracts are entered into with the mare owner not knowing exactly what he or she is walking into... that's 10% too many. Over the years, that adds up to a lot of disgruntled investors who are unlikely to advocate TB investment to others, which hurts us all. The ripple effect can not be overstated.
It sounds like Claiborne has done a good job of managing WF... but he's likely only breeding 2 mares per day, which needs to be disclosed as it can limit the number of time slots available, leading to missing a mare's optimal time for breeding, which is obviously important with WF.
It's already incredibly tough to keep people in this game... Why on earth would we not want full disclosure to keep newcomers from walking away with a bad taste in their mouth?? ATR clearly gave Mr. Sams a platform to divulge all relevant details, but he declined. That says a lot in and of itself. There's obviously something unique about WF in that Claiborne feels like he needs to be bred right on top of an ovulation... so then what's the harm in disclosing the reasoning so investors can make up their own minds? Yes, some investors don't have the medical background to interpret a statement from Claiborne, but that's not an excuse to misrepresent a horse as being within normal reproductive parameters.
I would agree that the vast majority of stallion managers are willing to disclose problems, but if only 10% of all breeding contracts are entered into with the mare owner not knowing exactly what he or she is walking into... that's 10% too many. Over the years, that adds up to a lot of disgruntled investors who are unlikely to advocate TB investment to others, which hurts us all. The ripple effect can not be overstated.
He's likely only breeding 2 mares a day??? And what is wrong with that? If stallion books were kept where they should be, around 100 mares or less, there would be no problem with breeding a stallion twice a day. Thats 300 covers during the breeding season, certainly plenty to get 100 mares in foal.
Im thinking the problem is not with the stallions, but with the industry trying to turn stallions into ATM machines.
Im thinking the problem is not with the stallions, but with the industry trying to turn stallions into ATM machines.
Fireslam... take a deep breath. I only made the reference to 2 mares per day to illustrate that relative to other stallions (many of which breed 3-4 per day), WF may not have the same reproductive prowess and might not be as easily accessible as other stallions.
I actually agree with you in regards to overbreeding... but that's an entirely different argument.
I actually agree with you in regards to overbreeding... but that's an entirely different argument.
Coaltown wrote: Mare management is a major part of getting a mare pregnant and keeping her pregnant. How many of these “infertility claims” are going to be made by mare owners who have an old, barren mare in poor condition and decide to blame the stallion for their own poor mare care? Or they are too cheap to use vets or even tease their mares properly, or they board at the cheapest farm possible, or throw the mare out in a field after her first pregnancy check and forget about her till next spring. These are not hypothetical situations, these have all happened and fertile stallions have been blamed for an empty mare. Remember, the stud farm doesn’t make money if the mare doesn’t get in foal. That’s why they have 3 or 4 or 5 breeding sessions a day, to get these mares bred when they need to be bred. To accuse any farm of conspiring to hide a stallion’s breeding issues is being a little paranoid.
Crystal wrote: .. (sic) A breeding farm doesnt see a dime for a ship in that hasnt been teased, palped, cultured but the owner is convinced she is ready for a stud, let alone be covered. In fact it costs money, is time consuming, very dangerous, and a waste of Everyones time.
If a mare owner calls with concerns or questions many if most stud farms are forth coming with information. There is no reason not to be.
Mare management is a HUGE part of it. I have seen mares come in so GLOWING with show sheen, brand new neck strap, daddled to the 9s'.. BREAKING DOWN on the path to the breeding shed, that don't get in foal. On the other hand I have seen them come in 4 or 5 ribs sticking out, mud and grit all over, and the stallion looks at them and 14 days later they are in foal. And god willing there are some farm owners that don't have a clue and have lovely foals the next spring..Regumate?? Whats that? What a progesterone level?
That was the point I was striving for when I responded to griff's simplistic "covers vs. live foals" argument. I have also noticed that it seems to be that the higher stud fee stallions tend to have larger live foal vs cover crops. Perhaps more diligence and $$ are spent on those more valuable mares who visit the hallowed grounds of stallions whose fees are in the 5- to 6-figure ranges.
I had a fellow bring some mares to Rocking Trick a few years ago and none but one got in foal. They were ribby, wormy, with prominent backbones, thick coated, etc. The owner was quite proud that his mares received NO grain and he kept them on pasture, which was likely heavily endowed with fescue. I was not surprised when he only got the one in foal, who was apparently the easiest keeper of the lot and in the best shape. In that case, holding those mares against my stallion's live foal number for the year is just not fair.
So Run for the Roses, as fast as you can.....
I may be simplistic but think a 50% to 60% +/- foals to covered mares ratio is terrible..
Talk about bad mare management all you wish. I have seen too many wild ferral [there are no mustanges left] mares that have not been vaccinated or wormed and would not know what grain is it offered and a vast majority, certainly much much better than 50% to 60%, either have a foal nursing or a very big belly.
They multiply like rabbits and the governement is spending millions feding them in what almost looks like feed lots. And they do this w/o the benefit a a top notch mare manager.
griff
Talk about bad mare management all you wish. I have seen too many wild ferral [there are no mustanges left] mares that have not been vaccinated or wormed and would not know what grain is it offered and a vast majority, certainly much much better than 50% to 60%, either have a foal nursing or a very big belly.
They multiply like rabbits and the governement is spending millions feding them in what almost looks like feed lots. And they do this w/o the benefit a a top notch mare manager.
griff
"We has met the enemy and he is us" [Pogo]