Smarty Jones and the "G1 filly"
Moderators: Roguelet, WaveMaster, madelyn
Tappiano wrote:I always wonder sometimes about first crop sires and how the farms are willing to take in mares from so many different lines and physical types that by definition some just are not going to work.
But I imagine that you can't figure out what does work until you do it and see the results over time.
It's not necessarily a good thing to restrict a stallion's book to one physical type or bloodline because matings don't happen on paper.
I probably should have prefaced my post by saying that the industry gives up on a horse when their first crop turns three if they have not had that many winners.
There are probably opposite scenarios and I think that might have been one of the reasons Strong Hope was shipped south so quick....
I wonder if anyone has looked at the books in some of the stallions that had people running from them to see what was in the second book that they "hit" with versus what they missed with in their first crop.
There are probably opposite scenarios and I think that might have been one of the reasons Strong Hope was shipped south so quick....
I wonder if anyone has looked at the books in some of the stallions that had people running from them to see what was in the second book that they "hit" with versus what they missed with in their first crop.
hi zinn21...hi madelyn
All Things Considered...not the least of which are the QUALITY and Quantity of opportunity Smarty Jones received (hmmm...shares at $650k per, and advertised stud fee at $100,000
) is it unreasonable to suggest that his resume thus far is more (arguably a whoooole lot more) about lack of accomplishment as a racehorse sire than accomplishment?
Arguably Smarty Jones (with the help of his connections?) has dug himself into a VERY deep hole. Yes he's got himself what appears to be a very nice graded stakes-winning second crop 2-year-old...but it seems (to me anyway) SJ will have to do a whole lot more than he's done thus far to redefine himself/be perceived as (to my way of thinking anyway) little more than extremely suspect and/or extricate himself from under a cloud of suspicion.
I'd expect that SJ's connections are hoping (and maybe praying) for a whole lot more; but (based on what I've seen by him thus far) I'm not expecting a whole lot, nor am I holding my breath
. That's not to say though that SJ may not get some good ones over the course of his career, maybe even a racehorse extraordinaire. Why not? After all, in the world of thoroughbreds hopes and dreams can serve as fuel; and, sometimes dreams do come true.
If he had (but he didn't
) a VERY nice Saratoga stakes-winner last year (first crop), that may have (short term anyway) relieved/diminished some of the concerns/criticism. Reality is though (at least from my perspective) Smarty Jones' first crop accomplishments as a racehorse sire were (All Things Considered) simply TERRIBLE.
Certainly Smarty Jones' fall from grace (if you will) would have fueled less hoopla had he opened at some kind of realistic fee ($20k?)...and it may be reasonable to suggest that (at a more realistic fee) whatever scorn and ridicule he may still have been the target of might have been less toxic.
On the hoopla (your word) flip side
...what about SJ's Belmont nemesis Birdstone? He was flying low under the radar, but still had plenty of detractors despite opening-up at $10k. Sometimes mind boggling how things can change and tables can turn.
Respectfully
zinn21 wrote: You folks buried Smarty a little early. This colt Backtalk is a stone cold runner. Agree it will take more than one but a top class two year old goes a long way..
All Things Considered...not the least of which are the QUALITY and Quantity of opportunity Smarty Jones received (hmmm...shares at $650k per, and advertised stud fee at $100,000
) is it unreasonable to suggest that his resume thus far is more (arguably a whoooole lot more) about lack of accomplishment as a racehorse sire than accomplishment? Arguably Smarty Jones (with the help of his connections?) has dug himself into a VERY deep hole. Yes he's got himself what appears to be a very nice graded stakes-winning second crop 2-year-old...but it seems (to me anyway) SJ will have to do a whole lot more than he's done thus far to redefine himself/be perceived as (to my way of thinking anyway) little more than extremely suspect and/or extricate himself from under a cloud of suspicion.
I'd expect that SJ's connections are hoping (and maybe praying) for a whole lot more; but (based on what I've seen by him thus far) I'm not expecting a whole lot, nor am I holding my breath
. That's not to say though that SJ may not get some good ones over the course of his career, maybe even a racehorse extraordinaire. Why not? After all, in the world of thoroughbreds hopes and dreams can serve as fuel; and, sometimes dreams do come true. madelyn wrote: One good two year old doesn't go anywhere towards justifying Smarty's opening fee of $100K.
If he had (but he didn't
) a VERY nice Saratoga stakes-winner last year (first crop), that may have (short term anyway) relieved/diminished some of the concerns/criticism. Reality is though (at least from my perspective) Smarty Jones' first crop accomplishments as a racehorse sire were (All Things Considered) simply TERRIBLE.madelyn wrote:In my opinion, NONE of this hoopla would have happened if they had introduced Smarty at some kind of realistic fee ($20K?).
Certainly Smarty Jones' fall from grace (if you will) would have fueled less hoopla had he opened at some kind of realistic fee ($20k?)...and it may be reasonable to suggest that (at a more realistic fee) whatever scorn and ridicule he may still have been the target of might have been less toxic.
On the hoopla (your word) flip side
...what about SJ's Belmont nemesis Birdstone? He was flying low under the radar, but still had plenty of detractors despite opening-up at $10k. Sometimes mind boggling how things can change and tables can turn.
Respectfully
I saw an ad for Not For Love this afternoon that claims 20% stakes horses from starters.. I called and they confirmend they use stakes winners [59] and stakes placed [52] horses to calculate a 20.4% stakes horses from 544 starters.
Did not get into the G-1 stakes calculations but 20% looks pretty good to me.
griff
Did not get into the G-1 stakes calculations but 20% looks pretty good to me.
griff
"We has met the enemy and he is us" [Pogo]
All I'm saying is if that little colt wins a few more races like the Hopeful that will effect Keeneland September yearlings prices. This is very much a media hype driven business at the top end. Why do you think Smarty stood and covered mares @ a hundred K in the first place? Media hype on the big stage drove his value and will drive again if Backtalk remains hot.. I would agree a hundred k stud fee is not likely even if Backtalk bypasses the BC Juvenile to run in the Classic.
hi zinn21
Maybe...but Mr Jones had a HUGE opportunity, and arguably delivered little more than NOTHING, ZERO, NADA from his first crop 2-yos (last year).
To my way of thinking...one nice colt (thus far) from Smarty J's second crop does NOT wash away what may be a dubious reality.
Seems to me it'll likely take a whole lot more than what we've seen thus far to inject significant energy into the deflated world of Smarty Jones.
SJ may have been advertised at $100k to support/justify/rationalize the fractional interest/share price of $650k that the farm had tagged on the young retiree. Whatever...
...I have yet to learn of anyone who actually paid $100k for Smarty's services. For what it's worth...not long after SJ was retired, seasons were offered for $70k.
Whatever the numbers...clearly some did get on board (after all, the TBTimes stallion directory numbers SJ's first crop named foals at 77); but, I wouldn't be surpised to learn that many (if not most) of those did get on board took it on the chin (financially).
I'm not so sure that's the case. I'd guess 3C gave their gold-plated rolodex a heavy-duty workout and garnered signatures on the dotted line as a result working the phone lines to connect with a strong/loyal client base.
How does the saying go? Fool me once...shame on you. Fool me twice...shame on me.
Respectfully
zinn21 wrote:All I'm saying is if that little colt wins a few more races like the Hopeful that will effect Keeneland September yearlings prices.
Maybe...but Mr Jones had a HUGE opportunity, and arguably delivered little more than NOTHING, ZERO, NADA from his first crop 2-yos (last year).
To my way of thinking...one nice colt (thus far) from Smarty J's second crop does NOT wash away what may be a dubious reality.
Seems to me it'll likely take a whole lot more than what we've seen thus far to inject significant energy into the deflated world of Smarty Jones.
zinn21 wrote:This is very much a media hype driven business at the top end. Why do you think Smarty stood and covered mares @ a hundred K in the first place?
SJ may have been advertised at $100k to support/justify/rationalize the fractional interest/share price of $650k that the farm had tagged on the young retiree. Whatever...
...I have yet to learn of anyone who actually paid $100k for Smarty's services. For what it's worth...not long after SJ was retired, seasons were offered for $70k.
Whatever the numbers...clearly some did get on board (after all, the TBTimes stallion directory numbers SJ's first crop named foals at 77); but, I wouldn't be surpised to learn that many (if not most) of those did get on board took it on the chin (financially).
zinn21 wrote: Media hype on the big stage drove his value and will drive again if Backtalk remains hot..
I'm not so sure that's the case. I'd guess 3C gave their gold-plated
rolodex a heavy-duty workout and garnered signatures on the dotted line as a result working the phone lines to connect with a strong/loyal client base.zinn21 wrote:I would agree a hundred k stud fee is not likely even if Backtalk bypasses the BC Juvenile to run in the Classic.
How does the saying go? Fool me once...shame on you. Fool me twice...shame on me.
Respectfully
Dearest FOS, why do you even bother signing off with "respectfully"? Your posts prove that you have no respect for Smarty Jones or Three Chimneys Farm or even their clientele. Fact is, Smarty stood to full books his first 3 years at stud - that's in the Report of mares bred on the JC site. I asked my contact at TCF and despite what you'd imply, yes, seasons traded at the advertised fee of $100k. It wasn't smoke and mirrors. His first yearlings averaged over $300k, and I don't remember seeing anyone with guns at the buyers heads. The second crop yearlings averaged over $200k, and still no criminal acts were required to keep buyers and trainers interested.
It seems like you just have an irrational dislike for Smarty Jones and TCF in general. You were badmouthing Sky Mesa last fall, too, if I remember. There's a saying that hindsight is 20/20. If Smarty Jones were doing as well as Birdstone or Medaglia d'Oro right now, everyone would be saying he was worth every penny of the investment. As it is, knowledgeable breeders and trainers are still willing to give him a shot because they're encouraged by Backtalk among his other hopefuls out there. The key word here is "knowledgeable." The more determined you are to convince us of the evil conspiracy to like Smarty Jones as a stallion, the more ridiculous you sound.
It seems like you just have an irrational dislike for Smarty Jones and TCF in general. You were badmouthing Sky Mesa last fall, too, if I remember. There's a saying that hindsight is 20/20. If Smarty Jones were doing as well as Birdstone or Medaglia d'Oro right now, everyone would be saying he was worth every penny of the investment. As it is, knowledgeable breeders and trainers are still willing to give him a shot because they're encouraged by Backtalk among his other hopefuls out there. The key word here is "knowledgeable." The more determined you are to convince us of the evil conspiracy to like Smarty Jones as a stallion, the more ridiculous you sound.
Coaltown don't take it personally. Over the years, FOS has carried the hatchet for, among others, Giant's Causeway and Medaglia D'Oro, both of whom he insisted had no chance of making it as stallions. (I believe he still feels that way about Giant's Causeway. )
His picks for top top stallion prospects have included Full Mandate and Atlantic Ocean.
So the fact that Smarty's getting dissed puts him in very good company indeed.
)
His picks for top top stallion prospects have included Full Mandate and Atlantic Ocean.
So the fact that Smarty's getting dissed puts him in very good company indeed.
-
summerhorse
- Breeder's Cup Winner
- Posts: 2178
- Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2005 6:40 am
- Location: Panama City, FL
- Contact:
I hope the Blood Horse won't mind:
Smarty Jones' Northern Hemisphere Rankings
2013 Rankings Rnrs Wnrs SWs SWins GSWs G1SWs
106 49 6 7 2 1
Chief Earner Earnings
Better Life ($190,717) $1,888,162
# 72 National
# 6 Northeast
# 3 Pennsylvania
2012 139 75 9 16 3 2
Better Life ($928,167) $5,060,733
# 45 National
# 2 Northeast
# 2 Pennsylvania
Smarty Jones' Current Top Performers Worldwide
Performer Age/Sex/Best Win Broodmare Sire Race (Grade if Applicable; Date; Purse; Distance; Time)
CENTRALINTELIGENCE 5 yo, g, G1W Seattle Slew Triple Bend H. (gr. I, 6/29/2013, $250,000, 7 furlongs, 1:21.57, Betfair Hollywood Park) Replay
2nd Los Angeles H. (gr. III, 5/27/2013, $100,000, 6 furlongs, 1:09.11, Betfair Hollywood Park) Replay
BETTER LIFE (AUS) 5 yo, m, G1W Sunday Silence Queen Elizabeth II Cup (gr. II, 4/26/2013, $151,289, Singapore)
3rd JBBA Moonbeam Vase (gr. III, 4/7/2013, $15,602, Singapore)
ISN'T HE CLEVER 4 yo, g, SW Deputy Minister San Juan County Commissioners H. (6/23/2013, $75,000, 1 1/8 miles, 1:49.95, Sunray Park) Replay
Bill Thomas Memorial S. (3/24/2013, $75,000, 6 1/2 furlongs, 1:13.45, Sunland Park) Replay
CONCEALED IDENTITY 5 yo, g, SW Polish Numbers John B. Campbell H. (2/16/2013, $75,000, 1 1/8 miles, 1:52.29, Laurel Park) Replay
3rd Henry S. Clark S. (4/20/2013, $75,000, 1 1/16 miles, 1:43.91, Pimlico) Replay
SOMMELIER SMARTY 7 yo, g, SW French Deputy Turf Distance Series Final S. (4/5/2013, $16,870, Turf Paradise)
CLM (3/19/2013, $5,533, Turf Paradise)
SMARTY B 4 yo, f, SW Fusaichi Pegasus Glendale H. (2/2/2013, $35,000, About 1 1/16 miles, 1:45.15, Turf Paradise) Replay
2nd Sun City H. (2/16/2013, $35,000, 1 mile, 1:37.73, Turf Paradise) Replay
SMART D N A 4 yo, c, G1W Smart Strike 2nd Clasico Ano Nuevo (gr. I, 1/6/2013, $11,900, Presidente Remon)
Smart Ellis 4 yo, c, G2PL El Gran Senor 3rd San Juan Capistrano H. (gr. II, 4/21/2013, $150,000, About 1 3/4 miles, 2:44.89, Santa Anita Park) Replay
AOC (3/3/2013, $60,000, 1 1/8 miles, 1:45.77, Santa Anita Park) Replay
DEVIL IN DISGUISE 4 yo, c, SW Forty Niner 2nd George Royal S. (4/28/2013, $49,175, 6 1/2 furlongs, 1:16.59, Hastings Racecourse) Replay
RES JUDICATA 3 yo, c, SW Honour and Glory 2nd Fit to Fight S. (4/7/2013, $75,000, 1 mile, 1:35.69, Aqueduct) Replay
AOC (6/20/2013, $32,000, 6 furlongs, 1:10.51, Penn National)
Smarty Jones' Northern Hemisphere Rankings
2013 Rankings Rnrs Wnrs SWs SWins GSWs G1SWs
106 49 6 7 2 1
Chief Earner Earnings
Better Life ($190,717) $1,888,162
# 72 National
# 6 Northeast
# 3 Pennsylvania
2012 139 75 9 16 3 2
Better Life ($928,167) $5,060,733
# 45 National
# 2 Northeast
# 2 Pennsylvania
Smarty Jones' Current Top Performers Worldwide
Performer Age/Sex/Best Win Broodmare Sire Race (Grade if Applicable; Date; Purse; Distance; Time)
CENTRALINTELIGENCE 5 yo, g, G1W Seattle Slew Triple Bend H. (gr. I, 6/29/2013, $250,000, 7 furlongs, 1:21.57, Betfair Hollywood Park) Replay
2nd Los Angeles H. (gr. III, 5/27/2013, $100,000, 6 furlongs, 1:09.11, Betfair Hollywood Park) Replay
BETTER LIFE (AUS) 5 yo, m, G1W Sunday Silence Queen Elizabeth II Cup (gr. II, 4/26/2013, $151,289, Singapore)
3rd JBBA Moonbeam Vase (gr. III, 4/7/2013, $15,602, Singapore)
ISN'T HE CLEVER 4 yo, g, SW Deputy Minister San Juan County Commissioners H. (6/23/2013, $75,000, 1 1/8 miles, 1:49.95, Sunray Park) Replay
Bill Thomas Memorial S. (3/24/2013, $75,000, 6 1/2 furlongs, 1:13.45, Sunland Park) Replay
CONCEALED IDENTITY 5 yo, g, SW Polish Numbers John B. Campbell H. (2/16/2013, $75,000, 1 1/8 miles, 1:52.29, Laurel Park) Replay
3rd Henry S. Clark S. (4/20/2013, $75,000, 1 1/16 miles, 1:43.91, Pimlico) Replay
SOMMELIER SMARTY 7 yo, g, SW French Deputy Turf Distance Series Final S. (4/5/2013, $16,870, Turf Paradise)
CLM (3/19/2013, $5,533, Turf Paradise)
SMARTY B 4 yo, f, SW Fusaichi Pegasus Glendale H. (2/2/2013, $35,000, About 1 1/16 miles, 1:45.15, Turf Paradise) Replay
2nd Sun City H. (2/16/2013, $35,000, 1 mile, 1:37.73, Turf Paradise) Replay
SMART D N A 4 yo, c, G1W Smart Strike 2nd Clasico Ano Nuevo (gr. I, 1/6/2013, $11,900, Presidente Remon)
Smart Ellis 4 yo, c, G2PL El Gran Senor 3rd San Juan Capistrano H. (gr. II, 4/21/2013, $150,000, About 1 3/4 miles, 2:44.89, Santa Anita Park) Replay
AOC (3/3/2013, $60,000, 1 1/8 miles, 1:45.77, Santa Anita Park) Replay
DEVIL IN DISGUISE 4 yo, c, SW Forty Niner 2nd George Royal S. (4/28/2013, $49,175, 6 1/2 furlongs, 1:16.59, Hastings Racecourse) Replay
RES JUDICATA 3 yo, c, SW Honour and Glory 2nd Fit to Fight S. (4/7/2013, $75,000, 1 mile, 1:35.69, Aqueduct) Replay
AOC (6/20/2013, $32,000, 6 furlongs, 1:10.51, Penn National)
Every mighty oak was once an acorn that stood its ground.