hi coq
Regarding your comment that I don't give "any credance to the sire-line of Tiznow and its brillance as well as a FULL sister who was a G2 winner at two."
I believe Relaunch was a wonderful racehorse and racehorse-sire but had limited success as a sire-of-sires. Examples: Slew Gin Fizz is barely so-so in North America...Honour and Glory has not been very consistent as a sire of quality racehorses (but has shown flashes of brilliance)...Skywalker has not made a significant mark...but Cee's Tizzy has been quite successful (All Things Considered) and is arguably Relaunch's best son.
As far as Tiznow's full-sister Tizdubai is concerned... I thought she was one exceptional weanling to look at when she sold at Keeneland (as I recall for nearly $1 mil)...
...maybe that's all enough to make the case that Tiznow'll make it as a 2-yo sire...without significant help from his mares...
...but I don't think so.
Physically he's HUGE...I ask, why after all these years at stud does WinStar not use a conformation photo or offer his official height in the stallion directory. I suggest that Tiznow's not the kind of stallion that looks like he'll flourish as a sire of 2-yo's. Maybe he will...but I expect he'll need plenty of help from his mares to get that job done.
Fact is though he does have a very good one (in Folklore)...but arguably she's out of a Storm Cat mare who's out of a Fappiano daughter that's out of an In Reality. A package that (to my way of thinking) is loaded with brilliance and quality and just might have delivered the necessary ingredients to get a quality 2-yo (with little help from Tiznow).
Best to you.
Respectfully
Now you're a genius, now you're not.
Moderators: Roguelet, WaveMaster, madelyn
Hi FOS,
You may be right and Coke may be right, we'll never know for certain.
I do think you're overstating Contrive as a broodmare. Storm Cat as her sire gave her her value. If she was a Bounday she would have been hard pressed (before Folklore of course) to bring $5,000 at sale. Simply on Contrive's side of the ledger, I agree with you that her slate of sires on the female tail enhances her, but she wasn't exceptional - until now
You bring up an interesting point about the photo - or lack of one in the stallion register for Tiznow. I thought about that the other day. I think that Winstar is pressing his racing record (and thus down playing a pedigree that's not very fashionable) and want to show him where they must think he'll be most impacting on the emotions of breeders - when he was racing. The text is all about sales prices and his racing. How he compares to Sunday Silence (bringing up a stallion that was ignored before he proved his brillaince), the sales prices of his family, etc. Seems like they're trying to commercialize him.
It's odd though that they chose to use Sakhee rather than Giant's Causeway and press the comparison. Tiznow's a good looking animal so I would think that they'd want breeders to see that, but you may be right that they want to move away from any negative that a breeder might feel is there. A defensive ad for sure.
I think you're fair in your assesment of Relaunch sons although I'd rate Skywalker as a good sire who lost his commercial appeal. His son, Bertrando, has been useful (and overpriced). I'm disappointed that you forgot Waquoit.
Cee's Tizzy may be his best and he sired the best horse (Tiznow). When a sire line ascends, it's usually through an increasing ability in the sire line. Not a bad profile for Tiznow.
Regards,
Pete
You may be right and Coke may be right, we'll never know for certain.
I do think you're overstating Contrive as a broodmare. Storm Cat as her sire gave her her value. If she was a Bounday she would have been hard pressed (before Folklore of course) to bring $5,000 at sale. Simply on Contrive's side of the ledger, I agree with you that her slate of sires on the female tail enhances her, but she wasn't exceptional - until now
You bring up an interesting point about the photo - or lack of one in the stallion register for Tiznow. I thought about that the other day. I think that Winstar is pressing his racing record (and thus down playing a pedigree that's not very fashionable) and want to show him where they must think he'll be most impacting on the emotions of breeders - when he was racing. The text is all about sales prices and his racing. How he compares to Sunday Silence (bringing up a stallion that was ignored before he proved his brillaince), the sales prices of his family, etc. Seems like they're trying to commercialize him.
It's odd though that they chose to use Sakhee rather than Giant's Causeway and press the comparison. Tiznow's a good looking animal so I would think that they'd want breeders to see that, but you may be right that they want to move away from any negative that a breeder might feel is there. A defensive ad for sure.
I think you're fair in your assesment of Relaunch sons although I'd rate Skywalker as a good sire who lost his commercial appeal. His son, Bertrando, has been useful (and overpriced). I'm disappointed that you forgot Waquoit
.
Cee's Tizzy may be his best and he sired the best horse (Tiznow). When a sire line ascends, it's usually through an increasing ability in the sire line. Not a bad profile for Tiznow.
Regards,
Pete
Has a palomino jean that pop up some.
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
There's a conformation photo of Tiznow readily available on the WinStar site, so I really don't think they're trying to hide anything. Here he is:
http://www.winstarfarm.com/img/stallion ... ow-new.jpg
http://www.winstarfarm.com/img/stallion ... ow-new.jpg
just curious, how much has tiznow grown since retirement? the conformation photo does not really show extreme size (in my mind), rather what sticks out is the highly held head ala man o war. is he a solid 16.3 or is he 17 hands plus?
definitely can not forget waquoit, as pete said, as he has been a nice solid sire in the midatlantic. always amazes me when the kentucky farms recommend crossing relaunch line mares to their studs, they too forget waquoit when listing the relaunch sires they recommend. i actually think waquoit mares would be wonderful crosses in some of those instances.
definitely can not forget waquoit, as pete said, as he has been a nice solid sire in the midatlantic. always amazes me when the kentucky farms recommend crossing relaunch line mares to their studs, they too forget waquoit when listing the relaunch sires they recommend. i actually think waquoit mares would be wonderful crosses in some of those instances.
I had Tiznow at 17+; a mammoth of a horse. However, he is big all over... and pretty well proportioned... although I still contend he has the biggest head of any thoroughbred I have ever seen.
On the other hand, I also saw him on his hind legs, rearing up... which made him look like Godzilla... so, perhaps my measurements were a bit compromised. Seeing him in such a manner, up close, leaves a truly lasting impression...
I imagine his size, which some breeders seem to think is too big, his male line, which some are reluctant to accept, or his family, which some point to as being less than stellar, are all reasons to emphasize his race record. He is a nice looking critter and was a fantastic racehorse, but so was Spectacular Bid...
Commercial markets tend to gravitate towards certain lines, Mr. P and Northern Dancer/Storm Cat, and away from those offering something different, thus WinStar has to work extra hard in trying to maintain Tiznow's status in the sales ring (and, thus, his stud fee). After the first couple years, commercial breeders are very reluctant to continue to support relatively uncommercial bloodlines (even Cozzene has had his struggles).
On the other hand, I also saw him on his hind legs, rearing up... which made him look like Godzilla... so, perhaps my measurements were a bit compromised. Seeing him in such a manner, up close, leaves a truly lasting impression...
I imagine his size, which some breeders seem to think is too big, his male line, which some are reluctant to accept, or his family, which some point to as being less than stellar, are all reasons to emphasize his race record. He is a nice looking critter and was a fantastic racehorse, but so was Spectacular Bid...
Commercial markets tend to gravitate towards certain lines, Mr. P and Northern Dancer/Storm Cat, and away from those offering something different, thus WinStar has to work extra hard in trying to maintain Tiznow's status in the sales ring (and, thus, his stud fee). After the first couple years, commercial breeders are very reluctant to continue to support relatively uncommercial bloodlines (even Cozzene has had his struggles).
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saintlyCZ
- Maiden Special Weight
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pete: I know I open it after a quite long time, but one more note: I've also never received an apology from my parents. But I learnt to apologize - although never to my parents. I learnt it and it helped me to calm down many storms. At least your partner stop shouting and start to hear you 
(written while thinking of my great friend )
to all:
I didn't follow all this discussion, but conformation photo of Tiznow was published very soon on WinStar website. I remember it, because I was waiting for it and it was shortly after his arrival. This photo was great - other than they use now, and he looked there much more impressive. I was curious how he really looks, and I was very nicely surprised... He looked much more better then I expected in my dreams. Perfect animal.
However, Bloodhorse published other photo, showing him minutes after his arrival to WinStar. It was very close to conformation photo.
I don't know what they use in stallion registers, they probably think that racing pictures will propagate him better than conformation picture... In his case it's quite a pity I think. Just my personal opinion, but I could find only a few stallions I like more than him. I'd be the happiest man in the world to stand a stallion like him one day.
and another note - to Folklore's precocity... maybe not so important, but Cee's Tizzy was able to run a brilliantly fast mile and when I'm sometimes looking at equibase results from California, he has some very fast animals there. Just look at yesterday's Del Mar results - El Don defeated Master David when running 1 1/16 in 1:39 4/5... that was 4yo gelding, well, but he had some nice three year olds early in the season too. And Tizdubai was brilliant filly, and not because she's "gr.2"... With Tiznow being not too late horse and with Storm Cat as a damsire... It's quite a logic, isn't it?
Cheers
sai
(written while thinking of my great friend )
to all:
I didn't follow all this discussion, but conformation photo of Tiznow was published very soon on WinStar website. I remember it, because I was waiting for it and it was shortly after his arrival. This photo was great - other than they use now, and he looked there much more impressive. I was curious how he really looks, and I was very nicely surprised... He looked much more better then I expected in my dreams. Perfect animal.
However, Bloodhorse published other photo, showing him minutes after his arrival to WinStar. It was very close to conformation photo.
I don't know what they use in stallion registers, they probably think that racing pictures will propagate him better than conformation picture... In his case it's quite a pity I think. Just my personal opinion, but I could find only a few stallions I like more than him. I'd be the happiest man in the world to stand a stallion like him one day.
and another note - to Folklore's precocity... maybe not so important, but Cee's Tizzy was able to run a brilliantly fast mile and when I'm sometimes looking at equibase results from California, he has some very fast animals there. Just look at yesterday's Del Mar results - El Don defeated Master David when running 1 1/16 in 1:39 4/5... that was 4yo gelding, well, but he had some nice three year olds early in the season too. And Tizdubai was brilliant filly, and not because she's "gr.2"... With Tiznow being not too late horse and with Storm Cat as a damsire... It's quite a logic, isn't it?
Cheers
sai
Avatar: This wonderful horse is my big love: Czech-bred horse Heretic, son of fantastic sire Rainbows for Life out of great dam Hairy Dream.
I agree with Saintly on Cee's Tizzy; that horse has quite a goodly amount of speed (see especially his last race in the Super Derby against Unbridled and others).
Also, his 2nd dam Tizna was a Remarkable Racemare (especially as a weight lugger) and I find it very interesting that Cee's Tizzy has a damline going back to Maid of Mashem (9-e, 9-g, 9-f) and a sire going back to Sophia (21-a). This makes him a reverse on his male line ancestor Fair Play (to whom Cee's Tizzy's grandsire In Reality was inbred 5x5x5) in the female lines.
Other big ones with this female family pattern pattern include Broad Brush and Daylami and also Preakness (GI) Winner and Pimlico Track Record Setter Deputed Testamony had it.
-llbean
Also, his 2nd dam Tizna was a Remarkable Racemare (especially as a weight lugger) and I find it very interesting that Cee's Tizzy has a damline going back to Maid of Mashem (9-e, 9-g, 9-f) and a sire going back to Sophia (21-a). This makes him a reverse on his male line ancestor Fair Play (to whom Cee's Tizzy's grandsire In Reality was inbred 5x5x5) in the female lines.
Other big ones with this female family pattern pattern include Broad Brush and Daylami and also Preakness (GI) Winner and Pimlico Track Record Setter Deputed Testamony had it.
-llbean