Indy Pacific

[Rez]

Very well said Kat and I couldn't agree with you more!!!!

[UmmYeah]

A $100K stakes race at a mid-level track like Bay Meadows costs $375 to nominate and another $375 to enter. I gotta agree with Ryeno here, if you can't afford $750 to enter a race, you shouldn't own racehorses. So you're saying that the only difference between a $100K stakes horse and a claimer is that the owner of the stakes horse can afford an extra $750? That is one of the most ridiculous things I have heard in a long time.

[magic code]

Same consignor also had Allamystique, one of the "white horses" as a stallion prospect. This is a horse who broke his maiden at Portland Meadows for $6,250, and I believe the only "white horse" from Airdrie Apache to win. He was listed as unsold for $4,500.

[StealingKat]

No I am not saying that $750.00 is too high a price for an entry at all.

My point is that just because a horse wins a stakes race it is not always the better animal. The animal that is capable of multiple starts is the superior animal REGARDLESS of stakes races.

[UmmYeah]

"Stakes" to me on a pedigree just reads as " the owners had more money than the rest of us and could afford the entry fee" Stakes horses are not necessarily better animals.

OK, I thought that statement was pretty clear, but I guess I somehow misinterpreted it.

My point is that just because a horse wins a stakes race it is not always the better animal. The animal that is capable of multiple starts is the superior animal REGARDLESS of stakes races.

Well, then you are definitely in the minority. I'd venture to say that 99.999% of people in the TB industry would disagree with you on that one. By your logic, Zippy Chippy would be the superior animal to a horse like Barbaro or even John Henry, simply because Zippy Chippy made more starts.

[StealingKat]

I guess my point is totally lost on misinterpretation. I don't know how to explain myself better. I really don't mind being the 1% who will be breeding sound quality horses. I'll take being the 1% over producing unsound horses who only make one start. If my breeding program never produces a stakes horse but each and every foal brings home a paycheck and then proceeds to retire sound and useable I will be happy. My goals are obviously very different than yours. I want my horses to run, not be dog food.

[StealingKat]

"Stakes" to me on a pedigree just reads as " the owners had more money than the rest of us and could afford the entry fee" Stakes horses are not necessarily better animals.


Nope you didnt misintrepret this part at all, it reads exactly correct.

I still stand by saying that Stakes horses are not necessarily better animals. Of course there are exceptions to this rule.

I had to reread it a couple time to see if it could be read differently but nope I still stand behind that one.

[StealingKat]

Zippy Chip was a gelding so I don't think we need to worry about him making a contribution to the gene pool Obviously there is way more to look at than just the race record when breeding. Pedigree and conformation are probably a good place to start ......... OK now I have the giggles big time.

[Ryeno]

Gotta respectfully agree to disagree with ya on this one. Cuz I disagree about 100% on your last comment.

I think most trainers make their money on the common mans horse, the bread and butter horse. The Claimer. I want to breed animals that can race a trillion times and come home sound. Not interested in the two year old stakes horse who wins once and then is retired to stud cuz he in now pinned together after his first start. I'm sort of surprised by your "unless a guy can afford the stakes races he shouldnt be racing". your a trainer! It's the common man paying the bills in most of the barns at Hastings. Yes, we do have some big names at the track with lots of money but they are the exception not the rule.

First of all you "misquoted" me.....i never said "unless a guy can afford the stakes races he shouldnt be racing". You made that one up.
My original post clearly stated "Stakes races are FOR better type horse.......if people dont have enough money to enter in stake races they should not own horses." There is a major difference between the two.

Exception to the rule? Huh? That is why we have classification in horse racing for the better horses to race against the better horses (Stakes,Handicaps Alw races etc.) and for the cheaper horses to run against the cheaper ones (5K claimers etc.) If you happen to know of any horses that are better than stakes horses running for cheaper claiming races only because the owners cant afford the nominations that gosh darn let me know because I'd love to claim that sucker!

And for you comment:
"I think most trainers make their money on the common mans horse, the bread and butter horse. The Claimer."
You are completely off on that comment.By the time a trainer pays the expenses training a horse there is usually no or little money left.Trainers basically work for their 10% fee of training horses.If you have a hard knocking "claimer" that wins a few races a year and makes $15K the trainer makes $1500 on the year for that horse.The trainer better have a lot of horses to make a decent living.ALL trainers are in this occupation to get the "eternal big horse" The ones that make 100k are the one's that gets trainers "ahead" and the prospect for better type horses to train.

Ryeno

[StealingKat]

I apologize for the misquote. Not trying to put words in your mouth. Yup trainers are looking for the big one. No doubt about that.

Still not sure what all of this has to do with an exceptional stallion prospect. That is what I have been discussing, This topic is not about what makes a good race prospect. We are talking about what makes a good "STALLION" prospect. The topic somehow shot into what makes a good racehorse, not even close to what is being discussed currently.

Like I said I agree to disagree, I personally could care less if a stallion has a stakes race behind him, I want soundness and staying power. I have no intention of changing my opinion on that. Would I breed a mare to Barbado?. Nope. Was he an amazing racehorse? Without a doubt.

[geowarrior]

Going back to the original post. The author was looking for an Illinois stallion. I don't know anything about the mare or whether this is breeding to race or sell, but a reasonably priced prospect in my opinion is Chicago Six by Wild Again out of Secretaridge by Secretariat. Chicago Six was Illinois Older Horse of the Year twice, 39 starts, numerous stakes wins with his best performance coming in the GIII Jockey Club Handicap where he set a new track record at Arlington Park. He won on both dirt and turf, and from six furlongs to 1 and 1/8 miles. He raced till he was seven and won over $700,000. He is a first crop sire, so far with one foal to run (filly running in Alberta, broke maiden first time out, won again second time out - low level races but still has made a profit) 10 registered in the first crop, now covering about 25 mares a year). His conformation is basically correct, 16.1 hands high, but he is by no means flashy, so is a breed to race prospect. He has an excellent temperament. He stands at Hill 'n Dale farm just outside Barrington, for $2500. Joe, the manager of the operation couldn't be more helpful, and is not at all pushy about trying to sell you on breeding to Chicago Six. But of course depends on your mare and your intentions re. racing vs. selling the offspring. But I thought I'd offer the suggestion just in case it fits. Joe also has lots of information about the Illinois breeding program incentives.

[Jeff]

I apologize for the misquote. Not trying to put words in your mouth. Yup trainers are looking for the big one. No doubt about that.

Still not sure what all of this has to do with an exceptional stallion prospect. That is what I have been discussing, This topic is not about what makes a good race prospect. We are talking about what makes a good "STALLION" prospect. The topic somehow shot into what makes a good racehorse, not even close to what is being discussed currently.

Like I said I agree to disagree, I personally could care less if a stallion has a stakes race behind him, I want soundness and staying power. I have no intention of changing my opinion on that. Would I breed a mare to Barbado?. Nope. Was he an amazing racehorse? Without a doubt.

Soundess and staying power are great, but unless you have superior speed, your sound, staying horses will never win a race, or only win low purse small track claiming races.

A horse with 100 starts that makes $150,000 dollars lifetime is a horse that made his owner go in into the hole financially. The horse didn't make enough money to pay his way for 100 races.

If he was owned by a trainer, maybe the trainer could have come out ahead a little bit. But if he was owned by somebody paying a trainer to run him, paying monthly expenses, vets, shoeing, entry fees etc. etc. etc., a horse like that is a money pit, a very expensive hobby, he never ran fast enough to hurt himself.

Jeff

[Heidilady]

Huh?
Stakes races are FOR better type horse.......if people dont have enough money to enter in stake races they should not own horses.

Ryeno

Quoting you here Ryeno...you absolutely DID say that. It's in print right here...nobody put the words in your mouth except for you.

And StealingKat I think it's a semantics issues in part. Superior horses run in stakes, that's why we have them...Lava Man is blue collar but he's got the class...Funny Cide's a Derby winner...you figure superior horses are ones that are consistent and sound then? Eh we'd all love the stakes horses to fit that description but many don't. Again that description would apply to Zippy Chippy gelding or no...I hardly think he qualifies.. It's the kind of horse you prefer (and you go right ahead and do that--very glad someone's doing it) but it's not going to win them the race over a stakes horse the majority of the time. Talent gets you to a stakes...how many Bernardini types are in claimers all the time until they retire? None. They try stakes eventually if the horse is good enough. This is where you get your Lava Man and Charismatic horses...

Rich people can afford to pay for horses with fancy breeding or outstanding conformation. Sure entry fees to the Breeders' Cup are enormous but if you haven't earned the money in a prep race one could argue you shouldn't run. How on earth could you have the seasoning or talent to get there most of the time if you haven't accomplished something prior at a stakes level?

The point is ultimately if you take Bernardini and a handful of claimers with 40 races to their name and put'em in a race they get their saddles handed to them by the big guy. Talent is where it comes down to. Money factors in a LOT but The Green Monkey has yet to see a stakes so I doubt money's the only thing that does it.

[StealingKat]

Heidilady,
You said what I was trying to say. Sometime I just can't get my point across well in words. Thank you!

[madelyn]

Well that was a wandering thread.. I believe the original poster was looking for a stallion to Buy.