How can you write off sons of Unbridled's Song so soon? You can not base everything on Buddha and isn't it too quick to write Buddha off as a sire because alot of stallions do not sire good two year olds. I agree people get too high on young unproven stallions especially when it comes to sons of horses like Storm Cat, Unbridled's Song, Distorted Humor, Giant's Causeway and so on.
We also need to look at the mares that are bred to the stallions. I think it would be a good idea to have inspections of mares to be approved of breeding not based on pedigree but based on conformation faults and genetic traits that should not be passed on. They have inspections for mares that can be bred to certain warmbloods. There could be inspections for stallions. Should you be able to breed a mare with a crooked leg or a mare that has OCD? People have been breeding broke downs horses for a very long time based on how good a horse could have been if he or she had not broke down. People are impressed on how good looking a stallion is along with a great pedigree and what races that horse has won and sometimes it is overlooked that horse retired unsound and commands a $100,000 stud fee and people still breed to that horse. Alot of break downs are man made or come from a bad step but do we need to keep making excuses and still breed to that unproven stallion. Break downs for a stallion's runners are not kept as a statistic but I think it would be an important statistic when selecting a stallion to breed to for your mare. We see alot of unraced horses for big stallions but a mare by Storm Cat is worth more unraced than if she raced and shows on paper she has no racing ability. These mares are bred because you like to get some money back that you spent on a $500,000 stud fee. Horses out of theses mares with no racing abilty seem to get big money for the foals. With inspections we could see on paper if the sire or dam was unsound. There needs to be something done with all the break downs.
Keith
Unbridled's Song as a "sire of sires"
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When you see a well bred horse retire unraced, doesn't common sense dictate that it was either poorly conformed, injured, or it simply had no/little ability? I don't like unraced mares, and certainly don't like unraced sires. Forgive me, *Alahbai.
Sam...that's exactly why sons of Unbridled's Song average $343,000...the average runner earns $70,000, so somebody must think the difference can be made up in stud fees. If you can think of another way, I'm all ears.
Why is that different than Storm Cat? His fee is $500K, but his average runner earns $145,000....how do you make up the difference based on these numbers? Shuttle off to stud....DUH!!! Maybe standing for $2,500 in Alabama can help to recoup the difference.
Maybe you should think once in a while before you comment.
Sam...that's exactly why sons of Unbridled's Song average $343,000...the average runner earns $70,000, so somebody must think the difference can be made up in stud fees. If you can think of another way, I'm all ears.
Why is that different than Storm Cat? His fee is $500K, but his average runner earns $145,000....how do you make up the difference based on these numbers? Shuttle off to stud....DUH!!! Maybe standing for $2,500 in Alabama can help to recoup the difference.
Maybe you should think once in a while before you comment.
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Hi Keith - I agree with a lot of the points you make. A lot of horses out there are being bred have no business being bred.
I think Songandaprayer is a pretty good example of an overhyped stallion. With his first crop, What A Song went for $1.9 Million and everyone was on his bandwagon, as he did sire some runners off the bat. He's since been moved, his stud fee went way up, and his last 2 crops haven't performed anywhere near expectations (IMO). Do I write him off? If you're looking for a fast 2 or 3 year old that may or may not stay sound for too long, he's a stallion right up your alley.
As for Buddha, I don't know what people expected. He's a crooked horse that had talent but raced only 4 times before being injured. If I'm looking to breed a sound horse or one with any kind of durability, he wouldn't be my first selection. Not too many Buddha's have made it to the winner's circle, but do I expect a Buddha to improve with age...when he, himself, ran only 4 times?
I won't get Sam all riled up about Giant's Causeway siring 25% winners/foals, 3% SWs, and having a 2.08 AEI against a 3,64 CI. Yeah, he's in the Coolmore/Ashford machine, but I don't imagine that he's being bred to any sisters of Mr Ed at $300K a pop. Is he not being bred to the right type of mare? Out of 200/year, I have to assume that at least a few are compatible for him. But only enough so for him to sire 3% SWs? I guess he'll hit the home run ball on occasion, which is what those selecting him as a sire go to him. But, what happens to the 97% of his foals that don't win a stake?
I think Songandaprayer is a pretty good example of an overhyped stallion. With his first crop, What A Song went for $1.9 Million and everyone was on his bandwagon, as he did sire some runners off the bat. He's since been moved, his stud fee went way up, and his last 2 crops haven't performed anywhere near expectations (IMO). Do I write him off? If you're looking for a fast 2 or 3 year old that may or may not stay sound for too long, he's a stallion right up your alley.
As for Buddha, I don't know what people expected. He's a crooked horse that had talent but raced only 4 times before being injured. If I'm looking to breed a sound horse or one with any kind of durability, he wouldn't be my first selection. Not too many Buddha's have made it to the winner's circle, but do I expect a Buddha to improve with age...when he, himself, ran only 4 times?
I won't get Sam all riled up about Giant's Causeway siring 25% winners/foals, 3% SWs, and having a 2.08 AEI against a 3,64 CI. Yeah, he's in the Coolmore/Ashford machine, but I don't imagine that he's being bred to any sisters of Mr Ed at $300K a pop. Is he not being bred to the right type of mare? Out of 200/year, I have to assume that at least a few are compatible for him. But only enough so for him to sire 3% SWs? I guess he'll hit the home run ball on occasion, which is what those selecting him as a sire go to him. But, what happens to the 97% of his foals that don't win a stake?
Look at unproven sires and stud fees
These unproven stallions had awesome race records but look at their lifetime starts and stud fee of a $100,000 and up.
Ghostzapper by Awesome Again 11 starts lifetime $150,000 stud fee
Smarty Jones by Elusive Quality 9 starts lifetime $100,000 stud fee
Empire Maker by Unbridled 8 starts lifetime $100,000 stud fee
Bernardini by A.P. Indy 8 starts lifetime $100,000 stud fee
Eventhough these 4 stallions put together have a stud fee less than Storm Cat but at $500,000 Storm Cat is still a better deal than breeding to these 4 unproven stallions. Storm Cat is proven siring 150 stakes winners at 14% and horses who have earned over $104,456,037. Granite he is bred to the best mares in the country and should not be bred to some mares based only on breeding the best to the best. Believe or not some great racemares do not cross with Storm Cat. $500,000 is a lot for a stallion who has never sired a Kentucky Derby winner. You can breed to an unproven son of Storm Cat for $50,000 who ran second in the Kentucky Derby. Look how much a Kentucky Derby winning son of Mr. Prospector was hyped at stud when you consider Fusaichi Pegasus. Imagine how much a Kentucky Derby winning son of Storm Cat would be hyped and he would easily get a $100,000 stud fee and retired early with a huge syndicate price.
Keith
Ghostzapper by Awesome Again 11 starts lifetime $150,000 stud fee
Smarty Jones by Elusive Quality 9 starts lifetime $100,000 stud fee
Empire Maker by Unbridled 8 starts lifetime $100,000 stud fee
Bernardini by A.P. Indy 8 starts lifetime $100,000 stud fee
Eventhough these 4 stallions put together have a stud fee less than Storm Cat but at $500,000 Storm Cat is still a better deal than breeding to these 4 unproven stallions. Storm Cat is proven siring 150 stakes winners at 14% and horses who have earned over $104,456,037. Granite he is bred to the best mares in the country and should not be bred to some mares based only on breeding the best to the best. Believe or not some great racemares do not cross with Storm Cat. $500,000 is a lot for a stallion who has never sired a Kentucky Derby winner. You can breed to an unproven son of Storm Cat for $50,000 who ran second in the Kentucky Derby. Look how much a Kentucky Derby winning son of Mr. Prospector was hyped at stud when you consider Fusaichi Pegasus. Imagine how much a Kentucky Derby winning son of Storm Cat would be hyped and he would easily get a $100,000 stud fee and retired early with a huge syndicate price.
Keith
I would like to take this opportunity to remind everyone that every single person on this board has the right to his or her own opinion. You do not have to agree with that opinion, but there is no reason to belittle someone for holding an opinion that is not in sync with your own.
We all enjoy heated discussions, but let's please keep the sniping out of the posts.
Thanks!
We all enjoy heated discussions, but let's please keep the sniping out of the posts.
Thanks!
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"Don't be a boorish buffoon" -Hokies Respect 'Jerk Alert'
"Don't be a boorish buffoon" -Hokies Respect 'Jerk Alert'
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hi llbean
Just sell him...of course.
Based on Buddha's putrid initial showing (as a racehorse sire) with his first 2-yos running (or whatever that was) in 2006...it would not surprise me if John Sikura would like to make Buddha disappear ASAP. That said...if a couple of star runners emerged, his status as a Hill n Dale stallion might be extended...BUT...
...considering the quantity and quality of opportunity that Buddha received at Hill n Dale...the mad rush (fever pitch if you will) to get seasons to him subsequent to his retirement...and the hype, spin and buzz that surrounded him...is it unreasonable to tag Buddha (based on his LACK of accomplishment, thus far, as a racehorse sire) as a HUGE disappointment (at the very least).
Buddha has earned plenty of negative (sometimes what might be described as brutal) criticism for himself. It's been heaped on...and arguably it might already be all but impossible to turn it around; even a top runner might not be enough. The seeds of doubt (and lack of performance) might already be of such significant proportion and tarnished Buddha to such an extent, that few if any (in the bluegrass anyway) might be willing to give him a second chance or a serious look.
I view John Sikura as a very serious and knowledgeable horseman, and I would be surprised (maybe amazed is a better word) if the thought hasn't crossed his mind (re Buddha as a sire of top quality racehorses) that he might very well have nothing short of a bum on his hands.
With that in mind...I would not be surprised if an attempt to make Buddha disappear from the grounds at Hill n Dale is not underway...and that an attempt to reintroduce or redefine or resurrect (or whatever) Buddha might take place (sometime in the not too distant future), but probably in a small regional market.
Best to you.
Respectfully
llbean wrote:FOS wrote:As for Buddha...it wouldn't surprise me if Hill n Dale is attempting to make him disappear, sooner rather than later
Hi FOS,
Do you mean "disappear" Picochet style? Or do you mean they'll just sell him (possibly overseas)?
-llbean
Just sell him...of course.
Based on Buddha's putrid initial showing (as a racehorse sire) with his first 2-yos running (or whatever that was) in 2006...it would not surprise me if John Sikura would like to make Buddha disappear ASAP. That said...if a couple of star runners emerged, his status as a Hill n Dale stallion might be extended...BUT...
...considering the quantity and quality of opportunity that Buddha received at Hill n Dale...the mad rush (fever pitch if you will) to get seasons to him subsequent to his retirement...and the hype, spin and buzz that surrounded him...is it unreasonable to tag Buddha (based on his LACK of accomplishment, thus far, as a racehorse sire) as a HUGE disappointment (at the very least).
Buddha has earned plenty of negative (sometimes what might be described as brutal) criticism for himself. It's been heaped on...and arguably it might already be all but impossible to turn it around; even a top runner might not be enough. The seeds of doubt (and lack of performance) might already be of such significant proportion and tarnished Buddha to such an extent, that few if any (in the bluegrass anyway) might be willing to give him a second chance or a serious look.
I view John Sikura as a very serious and knowledgeable horseman, and I would be surprised (maybe amazed is a better word) if the thought hasn't crossed his mind (re Buddha as a sire of top quality racehorses) that he might very well have nothing short of a bum on his hands.
With that in mind...I would not be surprised if an attempt to make Buddha disappear from the grounds at Hill n Dale is not underway...and that an attempt to reintroduce or redefine or resurrect (or whatever) Buddha might take place (sometime in the not too distant future), but probably in a small regional market.
Best to you.
Respectfully
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Storm Cat Stallions
Storm Cat Stallions
Forestry-sire of Discreet Cat, Diplomat Lady, and Forest Danger
Forest Wildcat-sire of Var, Forest Secrets, D'Wildcat, and Wildcat Heir
Giant's Causeway-sire of Shamrdal, Aragorn, Footstepsinthesand,First Samurai, Maid's Causeway
Hennessy-sire of Henny Hughes, Johannesburg,Grand Armee,Madcap Escapade, Harmony Lodge, Half Hennesy,Wiseman's Ferry,etc.
Stormy Atlantic-sire of Stormello, She Say's It Best, Twice as Bad, Gators N Bears, Atlantic Ocean, Icy Atlantic, Quite a Bride, Indian Ocean, etc.
Tale Of The Cat-sire of Lion Heart, Glamour Puss, My Trusty Cat, Spellbinder, Be Gentle,Falkirk,etc.
Storm Cat is a proven sire of sires and because almost every Storm Cat goes to stud you will see lots of failures, cripples, and so on.
As far as I am concerned how can one knock a horse like Storm Cat who has been so successful. Personally $500,000 is too much to breed to any stallion and I agree that Giant's Causeway will not be as successful as his sire. Giant's Causeway has 409 named foals in his first three crops with 20 stakes winners. Storm Cat had 140 named foals in his first three crops with 26 stakes winners. Giant's Causeway was bred to better mares in his first three crops than Storm Cat did in his first three crops.
As far as I am concerned Storm Cat and Sadler's Wells are the two best stallions in the world.
Keith
Forestry-sire of Discreet Cat, Diplomat Lady, and Forest Danger
Forest Wildcat-sire of Var, Forest Secrets, D'Wildcat, and Wildcat Heir
Giant's Causeway-sire of Shamrdal, Aragorn, Footstepsinthesand,First Samurai, Maid's Causeway
Hennessy-sire of Henny Hughes, Johannesburg,Grand Armee,Madcap Escapade, Harmony Lodge, Half Hennesy,Wiseman's Ferry,etc.
Stormy Atlantic-sire of Stormello, She Say's It Best, Twice as Bad, Gators N Bears, Atlantic Ocean, Icy Atlantic, Quite a Bride, Indian Ocean, etc.
Tale Of The Cat-sire of Lion Heart, Glamour Puss, My Trusty Cat, Spellbinder, Be Gentle,Falkirk,etc.
Storm Cat is a proven sire of sires and because almost every Storm Cat goes to stud you will see lots of failures, cripples, and so on.
As far as I am concerned how can one knock a horse like Storm Cat who has been so successful. Personally $500,000 is too much to breed to any stallion and I agree that Giant's Causeway will not be as successful as his sire. Giant's Causeway has 409 named foals in his first three crops with 20 stakes winners. Storm Cat had 140 named foals in his first three crops with 26 stakes winners. Giant's Causeway was bred to better mares in his first three crops than Storm Cat did in his first three crops.
As far as I am concerned Storm Cat and Sadler's Wells are the two best stallions in the world.
Keith
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Storm Cat sons
Storm and A Half-Leading sire in Arkansas
Tabasco Cat- Sire of 25 Stakes Winners
Bernstein -Sire of 6 stakes winners in his first 3 crops
Lion Hearted-Sire of 5 stakes winners in his first 3 crops
Catienus-Leading Sire in New York
Three Wonders- Top 10 Freshman Sire
Pure Prize-Top 3 Freshman Sire
Stormy Atlantic-Leading Juvenile Sire
Tale Of The Cat-Top 10 Juvenile Sire
Tribal Rule-Top 20 Freshman Sire
Storm Creek-Sire of 14 stakes winners including Gr1 winner Stormy Pick
Storm Boot-Sire of 44 Stakes winners
Stormin Fever-Sire of millionaire Sweet Talker and Grade I winner Tarlow
Freud-sire of stakes winners Flirt For Fame and Quick Little Miss
Harlan-sire of Harlan's Holiday and Menifee
Storm Cat is not even in the same league as Northern Dancer and Mr. Prospector as a sire of sires. If he is not a sire of sires why are so many people standing sons of Storm Cat? Many Storm Cat stallions should not be standing at stud especially those with poor conformation and poor race records. Stats are misleading because there are so many other factors that are not shown on paper like bad trainers, poor nutruition, over training, poor conformation, break downs, being mishandled, OCD, lameness,being bred to mares with poor conformation and so on.
Keith
Tabasco Cat- Sire of 25 Stakes Winners
Bernstein -Sire of 6 stakes winners in his first 3 crops
Lion Hearted-Sire of 5 stakes winners in his first 3 crops
Catienus-Leading Sire in New York
Three Wonders- Top 10 Freshman Sire
Pure Prize-Top 3 Freshman Sire
Stormy Atlantic-Leading Juvenile Sire
Tale Of The Cat-Top 10 Juvenile Sire
Tribal Rule-Top 20 Freshman Sire
Storm Creek-Sire of 14 stakes winners including Gr1 winner Stormy Pick
Storm Boot-Sire of 44 Stakes winners
Stormin Fever-Sire of millionaire Sweet Talker and Grade I winner Tarlow
Freud-sire of stakes winners Flirt For Fame and Quick Little Miss
Harlan-sire of Harlan's Holiday and Menifee
Storm Cat is not even in the same league as Northern Dancer and Mr. Prospector as a sire of sires. If he is not a sire of sires why are so many people standing sons of Storm Cat? Many Storm Cat stallions should not be standing at stud especially those with poor conformation and poor race records. Stats are misleading because there are so many other factors that are not shown on paper like bad trainers, poor nutruition, over training, poor conformation, break downs, being mishandled, OCD, lameness,being bred to mares with poor conformation and so on.
Keith
Re: Storm Cat sons
if you're looking at Storm Cat as a sire of sires, I'm not sure how you can leave off Forest Wildcat and Forestry.
Keith wrote:Storm and A Half-Leading sire in Arkansas
Tabasco Cat- Sire of 25 Stakes Winners
Bernstein -Sire of 6 stakes winners in his first 3 crops
Lion Hearted-Sire of 5 stakes winners in his first 3 crops
Catienus-Leading Sire in New York
Three Wonders- Top 10 Freshman Sire
Pure Prize-Top 3 Freshman Sire
Stormy Atlantic-Leading Juvenile Sire
Tale Of The Cat-Top 10 Juvenile Sire
Tribal Rule-Top 20 Freshman Sire
Storm Creek-Sire of 14 stakes winners including Gr1 winner Stormy Pick
Storm Boot-Sire of 44 Stakes winners
Stormin Fever-Sire of millionaire Sweet Talker and Grade I winner Tarlow
Freud-sire of stakes winners Flirt For Fame and Quick Little Miss
Harlan-sire of Harlan's Holiday and Menifee
Storm Cat is not even in the same league as Northern Dancer and Mr. Prospector as a sire of sires. If he is not a sire of sires why are so many people standing sons of Storm Cat? Many Storm Cat stallions should not be standing at stud especially those with poor conformation and poor race records. Stats are misleading because there are so many other factors that are not shown on paper like bad trainers, poor nutruition, over training, poor conformation, break downs, being mishandled, OCD, lameness,being bred to mares with poor conformation and so on.
Keith
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Keith's point is 100% right.
Forestry, for his $125,000 fee and fine books of mares, has sired ONE Millionaire (thanks to the UAE Derby purse). He also sired The Green Monkey, I believe. He a great sire for selling or reselling a foal, but if you're looking for an earner...
Seattle Slew had his AP Indy. Danzig had his Danehill. Storm Cat has his Giant's Causeway with a 2.08 AEI/3.64 CI and 25% winners/foals.
Forestry, for his $125,000 fee and fine books of mares, has sired ONE Millionaire (thanks to the UAE Derby purse). He also sired The Green Monkey, I believe. He a great sire for selling or reselling a foal, but if you're looking for an earner...
Seattle Slew had his AP Indy. Danzig had his Danehill. Storm Cat has his Giant's Causeway with a 2.08 AEI/3.64 CI and 25% winners/foals.
