What do you guys think of Mineshaft?

[horsenuts]

I base what a stud actually does first and foremost.... not on what the perception is i.e. sales prices. Somebody is going about this all backwards and since people are able to sell these offspring by unproven stallions for 6 and even 7 figures on occasion I guess it's me. But I'm only concerned with performance and that is never known until said horses actually race. Amazes me what people pay for an unproven commodity when there are so many proven commodities to breed to for FAR less i.e. Silver Deputy at $30,000.. Smart Strike at $75,000 etc. A great racehorse does not a stallion make.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion and to go to stallions that you believe will suit your budget and program the best. But there is a dollars and cents reality out there regarding new sires. You only get one shot to be in a stallion's first crop and that is when buyers in general will inspect his foals most keenly and you may make a once in a lifetime score like some "little guys" did with Hook and Ladders and Whywhywhys (and bigger guys made bloody fortunes with Vindications). You can hate the trend or the mindset, you can certainly refuse to follow it, but that hasn't stopped some people from exploiting it to make a lot of money--which of course interests other breeders and drives those fees higher.

Good deal of truth in that.... but no one should ever trust sales prices. More crooked games are played with young sires then nearly anywhere else. Any young stud can be made to look good running his first crop of yearlings WAY UP or buying 1-2 for 7 figures etc. My only comment is I would NEVER trust those sales prices as legitimate. "I'll buy yours if you buy mine" is the mantra.

[Rokeby Forever]

Pulpit already has a son that is siring seven figure sales horses (Sky Mesa). No other AP Indy son can claim that.

[Sysonby]

Good deal of truth in that.... but no one should ever trust sales prices. More crooked games are played with young sires then nearly anywhere else. Any young stud can be made to look good running his first crop of yearlings WAY UP or buying 1-2 for 7 figures etc. My only comment is I would NEVER trust those sales prices as legitimate. "I'll buy yours if you buy mine" is the mantra.

I have to admit that it was with a little trepidation that I bred to Whywhywhy this year. But I only did it when someone I trust saw several of the Whywhywhys and was bowled over by how nice they were as a group. (in fact, he was an underbidder on the two of the more expensive ones at Keeneland--those prices were real because he had live money and he has no connection with Gainesway or the syndicate.) That said, I don't expect that gravy train to continue.

So yeah while there is hanky panky in the market, that is more true of one or two high priced horses than a slew of them. I doubt very much that all of the Vindications or the Mineshafts were artificially propped up. It just would take too much money and believe it or not most buyers in that category can smell that stuff a mile away.

[Sysonby]

Pulpit already has a son that is siring seven figure sales horses (Sky Mesa). No other AP Indy son can claim that.

If this discussion means anything, that fact and that he is overrated are not necessarily mutually exclusive positions.

[horsenuts]

Pulpit already has a son that is siring seven figure sales horses (Sky Mesa). No other AP Indy son can claim that.

If this discussion means anything, that fact and that he is overrated are not necessarily mutually exclusive positions.

Always stuns me to see a horse that came apart like a cheap suitcase in very short order have his offspring sell for these type prices. Decades ago a stud that only ran a few times could be trusted somewhat in certain instances.... but in the modern world of medication and technology I recommend to steer clear of studs like Sky Mesa. Pulpit was short lived enough and Sky Mesa was cut in half of his own sires career.

[Rokeby Forever]

I agree, Horsenuts...I hate breakdown sires. However, I'll give Sky Mesa the benefit of the doubt because he went through the John Ward butchershop.

On a comparative level, if you look at other higher end stallions like Forestry and Elusive Quality, I think Pulpit has been a bargain.

[horsenuts]

I agree, Horsenuts...I hate breakdown sires. However, I'll give Sky Mesa the benefit of the doubt because he went through the John Ward butchershop.

On a comparative level, if you look at other higher end stallions like Forestry and Elusive Quality, I think Pulpit has been a bargain.

I was negotiating to breed to Elusive Quality...... when he stood for $10,000(was trying to get them to $7,500 but negotiations fell apart). Still don't think I missed much. Take Smarty away and EQ would be standing for around $7,500 today.

[nythoroughbredvz]

I still think the best deal out there was "Runaway groom" per stud fee! He proved himself over and over..

[Rokeby Forever]

The best bargain for years has been Cozzene. Dollar for Dollar, no sire compares.

[Mac]

I have a question: how many of you breeders here on this forum have had fairly consistent results with getting stakes winners and pay-their-way racehorses out of UNPROVEN sires? Those of you who are getting good results have my respect (and I am talking about purely from a racing standpoint).

Relating to this thread, whether Mineshaft or these other unproven sires are really worth their price tag seems to me at least to be based on what the breeder is trying to do, or somewhat about the "eye of the beholder". If one is a really astute commercial breeder, then it does seem that unproven sires can provide tremendous opportunities if that breeder goes about it right, and Mineshaft may prove some such breeders right.

For breed-to-racers, it seems to me that the "Mineshafts" and other really "hot" unproven sires sires may also provide an unintended benefit as it siphons so many good mares to these young sires that tried and true sires must often stay reasonably priced in comparison in order to fill their books...therefore breed-to-racers can benefit from what the commercial market is doing.

As a breed-to-racer, if I had five really good mares, for example, I would breed them to Pleasant Tap, Silver Deputy, Cozzene, or several others rather than Mineshaft if all these sires had the exact same price tag, but that is because these proven sires are very successful and because I personally can't begin to predict how good Mineshaft may be. I love his dam family, I have heard he looks great, his sire line is exciting in some respects, but it still doesn't draw the picture for me one way or the other.

But other breed-to-racers may be a lot more experienced and confident in their pedigree and "sire" theories to determine when a Mineshaft is a better option depending on the mare....

[bdw0617]

it's not the price, it's the fact that they are in fact, unproven.

If I had 300k laying around, that I could spare, I'd love to bread to AP Indy.

I'm not however, spending 100k to bred to smarty jones.

I can bred to pleasant tap like 5-6 times for that.

I