Thoughts on Bernstein

Discussion and analysis of thoroughbred stallions.

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horsenuts
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Postby horsenuts » Tue Jun 19, 2007 5:27 pm

Rokeby Forever wrote:Smuggler didn't have a drop of Storm Cat and won an Eclipse Award. Pine Island didn't have a drop of Storm Cat and was the favorite in the BC Distaff. Pleasant Home doesn't have a drop of Storm Cat blood and she won the BC Distaff by nine lengths. That's just in the last three years. All coincidence, I guess.

Convenient avoidance...Overbrook is up to its eyeballs with Storm Cat blood. Let's hear about all the Overbrook "success" over the last five years.


I see you left Storm Flag Flying off the list.... typical. Phipps have had just as many duds with Danzig/AP Indy as with Storm Cat IOWs a LOT of disappointments from all 3.


As for Overbrook.... the Patriarch is what 85? No one else seems all that intereted in the racing and breeding of horses so if the committment isn't there it's hard to raise good horses consitently.

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Bernstein

Postby hpkingjr » Tue Jun 19, 2007 5:29 pm

Ok Roke, given your position on Storm Cat, what's the reason or reasons that Bernstein is so much better in Argentina? Why is not Storm Cat as much poison in Argentina as in the USA? Does Storm Cat line stallions need a more diverse mare pool than what we have in the USA? And if so, what is the catalyst for his success in Argentina?

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Postby Rokeby Forever » Tue Jun 19, 2007 6:11 pm

Horsenuts: Storm Flag Flying was a major disappointment at age three and had to make a comeback at age four. Any one of the three fillies I mentioned in the last three years from Phipps would have eaten SSF for lunch.

Wait a minute...Young was an 85 year old patriarch so Storm Cat and Overbrook had an excuse? What was Ogden Phipps...a spring chicken? You've got to be kidding!!!

HPKingjr: If you've been reading the thread, all those Egg Toss broodmares in Argentina allowed Bernstein to double up to Busanda. Quite simple, actually.
What synthetics are to California racing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gb0mxcpPOU

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Postby Maven » Tue Jun 19, 2007 7:07 pm

22 foals out of Egg Toss mares with one G1, one G3, and one stakes-placed winner.

On the other hand, 4 foals out of Ahmad mares, bringing in more Nasrullah which Bernstein wants, and has one G2 winner, and one G3 winner.

Two Babas Fables mares have seen Bernstein, with a G2 winner to show, again, bringing in more Nasrullah.

Twety-five Lode mares have seen his court with only one G3 winner to show. The cross brings in Raise a Native and Northern Dancer which is not working.

Shy Tom brings in Nasrullah again and 11 of his daughters went there... has had two grade 1 winners, and one of which is now a G2 winner in the states. He also has 2 of Bernstein's top earners but with no blacktype.

I'd also add Southern Halo is working really well with him and he only brings Northern Dancer to the table.
Don't be so humble - you are not that great.

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Postby Rokeby Forever » Tue Jun 19, 2007 7:20 pm

Southern Halo mares give the Bernstein foals the Hail To Reason/Busanda (mostly from Buckpasser) cross....just ask More Than Ready. Golden!!! Northern Dancer doesn't even enter into that equation.
What synthetics are to California racing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gb0mxcpPOU

horsenuts
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Postby horsenuts » Tue Jun 19, 2007 9:12 pm

Rokeby Forever wrote:Horsenuts: Storm Flag Flying was a major disappointment at age three and had to make a comeback at age four. Any one of the three fillies I mentioned in the last three years from Phipps would have eaten SSF for lunch.

Wait a minute...Young was an 85 year old patriarch so Storm Cat and Overbrook had an excuse? What was Ogden Phipps...a spring chicken? You've got to be kidding!!!

HPKingjr: If you've been reading the thread, all those Egg Toss broodmares in Argentina allowed Bernstein to double up to Busanda. Quite simple, actually.



None of Young's heirs have shown any interest in horseracing. OTOH Phipps' have been racing for several generations and why they continue in racing and breeding. And none of those Phipps fillies you mentioned were anywhere near the two year old SFF was and why SC has been so popular over the years(precocious 2 year olds). Pleasant Home "got good" for last two races of her career and loved Belmont. Other then that she was just another nice filly during her career and nothing more.

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Postby sunday_silence » Tue Jun 19, 2007 9:16 pm

horsenuts wrote:

None of Young's heirs have shown any interest in horseracing.


Hello? Chris Young?

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Postby horsenuts » Tue Jun 19, 2007 9:31 pm

sunday_silence wrote:
horsenuts wrote:

None of Young's heirs have shown any interest in horseracing.


Hello? Chris Young?


That's news to me because several years ago WT said no one seemed interested in carrying on Overbrook. And watching Overbrook dwindle down over the past 5 years or so I figured it was a farm on its way out and fixing to be sold off once the sun set on WT for the last time. It just seemed that the commitment was no longer there to keep a top farm going. I attributed this to Mr Young's age and what he had said about "lack of interest".

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Postby Rokeby Forever » Tue Jun 19, 2007 9:49 pm

How has Overbrook "dwindled?" It has a roster of completely mismanaged stallions, but Pioneering finally got some recognition and was bred his biggest book in 2006, and Jump Start is a new stallion and is currently the second highest stud fee on the farm.

If Overbrook has "dwindled," it's because Storm Cat never gave the farm a successor. Cat Thief is standing elsewhere for $10,000 and Tabasco Cat was eventually exported. Tactical Cat is the only Storm Cat son on the farm, and he's offering toxin at a whopping $5,000.

Conversely, AP Indy has given Lanes End a promising $100,000 stallion in Mineshaft and Stephen Got Even stands at the $20,000 level. Storm Cat has given Overbrook squat!
What synthetics are to California racing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gb0mxcpPOU

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Postby sunday_silence » Tue Jun 19, 2007 10:19 pm

horsenuts wrote:
sunday_silence wrote:
horsenuts wrote:

None of Young's heirs have shown any interest in horseracing.


Hello? Chris Young?


That's news to me because several years ago WT said no one seemed interested in carrying on Overbrook. And watching Overbrook dwindle down over the past 5 years or so I figured it was a farm on its way out and fixing to be sold off once the sun set on WT for the last time. It just seemed that the commitment was no longer there to keep a top farm going. I attributed this to Mr Young's age and what he had said about "lack of interest".


Chris Young is the family's "Racing Manager" (although he himself was quoted as saying he isn't sure what that means). He's at the sales shopping. If they have a horse in, he's usually at the track. From talking to some people who worked at the farm when he was a teen, it sounds like he was in the trenches learning and working with them, and not being the ass he could've been in his position.

The main problem Overbrook has is lack of stallion power beyond Storm Cat. It's fine 'til he dies or is pensioned, of course. This is why they've actually pursued standing some of the bigger names in recent years, whereas they never before had any interest in standing anything but their own. Rock Hard Ten is one they tried to get. They've lost out, though, because they won't pay enough.

They don't have much time left to find something to help fill the void that will be left by Storm Cat. Jump Start may be a nice stallion, but he hasn't started off gangbusters. I haven't noticed any promising colts in their stable at the moment. Something needs to give.

The farm is right in the path of development on that side of Lexington. Part of their spread is likely to be sold for that purpose. Mr. Young had the foresight to buy that other hunk of land across the road from part of the property they already had. So, if they need to sell part of the original farm to be developed, there's still plenty of land for the farm.

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Postby horsenuts » Tue Jun 19, 2007 11:16 pm

Rokeby Forever wrote:How has Overbrook "dwindled?" It has a roster of completely mismanaged stallions, but Pioneering finally got some recognition and was bred his biggest book in 2006, and Jump Start is a new stallion and is currently the second highest stud fee on the farm.

If Overbrook has "dwindled," it's because Storm Cat never gave the farm a successor. Cat Thief is standing elsewhere for $10,000 and Tabasco Cat was eventually exported. Tactical Cat is the only Storm Cat son on the farm, and he's offering toxin at a whopping $5,000.

Conversely, AP Indy has given Lanes End a promising $100,000 stallion in Mineshaft and Stephen Got Even stands at the $20,000 level. Storm Cat has given Overbrook squat!


Stephen Got Even is a $3,500 stallion wrapped in a $20,000 price tag(like so many in Ky. are). As for Mineshaft.... drop a zero and you'd be much closer to what he should be standing for until he proves otherwise(which I doubt he ever will) but so long as "the greater fool" theory holds true.. everyone back in the water.


AP Indy is a very nice sire of top racehorses but I'm not that sold on him being a "sire of sires". Pulpit is more fluff then stuff when you get looking closely... and why is Sky mesa standing for $30,000 when you can breed to Essense of Dubai for $5,000? Both are by Pulpit both are out of top mares.... and EoD was the better all around racehorse running in NY and California as well as Dubai while winning at all locals.


Only in the stud "business" do you start out at the top and work your way to the bottom.... the complete opposite of most businesses. The "greater fool" is alive and well in Ky.


As for Overbrook I haven't seen any committment to Overbrook Farm for years now and it's not just their stallion roster.

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Postby Rokeby Forever » Wed Jun 20, 2007 12:29 am

You forget that Pulpit sired Sightseeing, future winner of this year's Travers. Pulpit also sired a Grade 1 miler this year (Corinthian)...that's 1 more Grade 1 dirt winner than Storm Cat has sired all year.

Better questions: Why would you breed to Forestry at $125,000? His two claims to fame, The Green Monkey and Discreet Cat, are both held together with paper clips. Compare Giant Causeway's AEI to his full brother, Freud...is there a $240,000 difference that you can see? J-Burg at $65,000? Scat Daddy's feet fell apart and $9,000 Teuflesburg is at home at 7 furlongs. What does the median J-Burg make these days...enough for a plasma TV?

What's C'mon Tiger going to be worth? If you don't know who he is....he's Tiznow's four year old half brother by Storm Cat that's never won a stake. Mr Sekiguchi? Anything more than a bottle of sake?

"AP Indy is a very nice sire of top racehorses but I'm not that sold on him being a "sire of sires". " Let's here your rationale on Storm Cat.
What synthetics are to California racing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gb0mxcpPOU

horsenuts
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Postby horsenuts » Wed Jun 20, 2007 6:32 am

Rokeby Forever wrote:You forget that Pulpit sired Sightseeing, future winner of this year's Travers. Pulpit also sired a Grade 1 miler this year (Corinthian)...that's 1 more Grade 1 dirt winner than Storm Cat has sired all year.

Better questions: Why would you breed to Forestry at $125,000? His two claims to fame, The Green Monkey and Discreet Cat, are both held together with paper clips. Compare Giant Causeway's AEI to his full brother, Freud...is there a $240,000 difference that you can see? J-Burg at $65,000? Scat Daddy's feet fell apart and $9,000 Teuflesburg is at home at 7 furlongs. What does the median J-Burg make these days...enough for a plasma TV?

What's C'mon Tiger going to be worth? If you don't know who he is....he's Tiznow's four year old half brother by Storm Cat that's never won a stake. Mr Sekiguchi? Anything more than a bottle of sake?

"AP Indy is a very nice sire of top racehorses but I'm not that sold on him being a "sire of sires". " Let's here your rationale on Storm Cat.



Harlan was a very nice sire will be interesting to see if Harlan's Holiday can pass on some of his durability on as he ran 22 times until the age of 4 earning 3.6 million which is rare in this day and age. Hennessy has sired some nice horses as well though he'd be better priced at $30,000 as opposed to $60,000 but Johannesberg is keeping the "sire of sires" theory alive. Forestry?.... the market has always liked them but they haven't panned out on the track. Storm Cat is not all bad.... just overpriced and not very durable for the most part. Still, one can pick a few kernels from the crap if careful but most aren't interested in doing so they are mainly focused on turning a dollar and moving on.

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Postby Rokeby Forever » Wed Jun 20, 2007 11:23 am

I can't believe it, Horsenuts - you wrote something I agree with! Pinch me! LOL!
What synthetics are to California racing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gb0mxcpPOU

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stats

Postby hpkingjr » Wed Jun 20, 2007 4:58 pm

NORTH AMERICA
WINS

0 Champions


3 Graded Stakes Wnrs 3

8 Stakes Winners 13

4 Stakes Placers



SOUTH AMERICA
WINS

1 Champions


15 Graded Stakes Wnrs 22

19 Stakes Winners 23

13 Stakes Placers

Wow what a difference.