A.P. Indy or Storm Cat?
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yukidragon
- Starters Handicap
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hi dray33...hi Rok
Mr Prospector was oh sooooooo Incredibly GREAT (maybe an understatement). As for Storm Cat, he's had his moments, has had more than his fair share of successes, and does have his appeal...but, is NOT (at least to my way of thinking) in the same league as Mr Prospector.
dray33, if you are actually considering risking/spending $300k on a stud fee in 2008 (and it's not a hypothetical), I might recommend that you strongly consider using the services of Distorted Humor...and keeping the change
.
Best
Respectfully
Rokeby Forever wrote:dray33 wrote:... I think I would go to STORM CAT because it would bug me 20 years from now to think: "ya know, I could have bred so-and-so to STORM CAT". It's like saying "I shoulda bred to Mr. Prospector when I had the chance", I guess.
... What has Storm Cat sired in the last two or three years that even warrants a comparison?
There are 134 Storm Cat sons standing stud....only TWO stand for $100,000 or more. Does the world need another one standing in Podunk for $3,500? Mr P was a sire of sires....clearly, Storm Cat isn't - how can you put the two in the same paragraph?
Mr Prospector was oh sooooooo Incredibly GREAT (maybe an understatement). As for Storm Cat, he's had his moments, has had more than his fair share of successes, and does have his appeal...but, is NOT (at least to my way of thinking) in the same league as Mr Prospector.
dray33, if you are actually considering risking/spending $300k on a stud fee in 2008 (and it's not a hypothetical), I might recommend that you strongly consider using the services of Distorted Humor...and keeping the change
.
Best
Respectfully
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Rokeby Forever
- Darley line
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- Location: Reno, NV
Hi Dray,
Good luck with your decision. If I may, I have two questions:
1. There's a lot to like about Brushed Bayou's female family. Do you feel that Storm Cat can better bring out its positives than can AP Indy (or Distorted Humor)?
2. Thinking about FOS's suggestion: The "bubble" may have burst on Storm Cat, as the Sheikh may be backing off on him, and nobody was really impressed with his yearling crop this year. Distorted Humor is unquestionably the hottest sire on the planet right now - looking at three years from now, might selling a Distorted Humor foal attract more interest than an "on the way out Storm Cat" foal? Mr P did sire Fu Peg at a very advanced age, but Storm Cat, as we agree, isn't Mr P.
Good luck with your decision. If I may, I have two questions:
1. There's a lot to like about Brushed Bayou's female family. Do you feel that Storm Cat can better bring out its positives than can AP Indy (or Distorted Humor)?
2. Thinking about FOS's suggestion: The "bubble" may have burst on Storm Cat, as the Sheikh may be backing off on him, and nobody was really impressed with his yearling crop this year. Distorted Humor is unquestionably the hottest sire on the planet right now - looking at three years from now, might selling a Distorted Humor foal attract more interest than an "on the way out Storm Cat" foal? Mr P did sire Fu Peg at a very advanced age, but Storm Cat, as we agree, isn't Mr P.
What synthetics are to California racing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gb0mxcpPOU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gb0mxcpPOU
It is an interesting question, to be sure. Of the eight graded stakes winners who have Broad Brush as the damsire, two are by Rahy, one by Mr. Greeley, etc. But none have any Storm Cat on top.
Storm Cat for Brushed Bayou might be a bit like buying a gal Jimmy Choo's, non-returnable, in the wrong size. For a first foal, I like Smart Strike for this mare.
Storm Cat for Brushed Bayou might be a bit like buying a gal Jimmy Choo's, non-returnable, in the wrong size. For a first foal, I like Smart Strike for this mare.
So Run for the Roses, as fast as you can.....
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kimberley mine
- Breeder's Cup Contender
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- Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 8:43 pm
Dray,
AP Indy's best by FAR have carried Mr P on the damline. Brushed Bayou is completely free of Mr Prospector, and despite being a sprinter she has stamina influences from here to next week. I think with her, until she has had a few foals, the risk of getting a plodder is way too great. Also remember that BB had foot problems throughout her career, so sending her to a horse with
There is actually quite a lot on her damline that would complement Storm Cat (such as Wild Again, Private Account, and Key to the Mint)...BUT for the money there are much better options out there.
For $60,000 (and maybe less) you can have a Rahy and for $30,000 you can have a Cozzene. You already know about Dreaming of Anna and Lewis Michael. Jiggs Coz, who took 3rd place in the Queen's Plate, is injured but he is a very nice horse and will be back on the Woodbine circuit next year. Of them, I'd go for Cozzene to duplicate the cross of Jiggs Coz and her cousin Alphabet Soup. He is also the oldest of the lot. If he still stands in 2008 that will almost certainly be his last year. He is so much more horse for $30,000 than Storm Cat is for $300,000 that it isn't even funny.
Option 3 is Giant's Causeway. He brings in Storm Cat and Rahy and is from the immediate family of Broad Brush's near-millionaire son Quest Star. I really, really like the way his family matches with her breeding. Broad Brush had excellent success with extra Hail to Reason, Blushing Groom, and returns of *Pocahontas...GC's bottom line brings in all three. Who knows his fee right now, but definitely you can get to him for well below $300k and he will get you a serious runner. If you can, ask Ashford if they can give you starters/winners/SP/SW for only his Northern Hemisphere foals--his Australian-breds are a disaster but his US/Euro breds are very, very, very good horses.
AP Indy's best by FAR have carried Mr P on the damline. Brushed Bayou is completely free of Mr Prospector, and despite being a sprinter she has stamina influences from here to next week. I think with her, until she has had a few foals, the risk of getting a plodder is way too great. Also remember that BB had foot problems throughout her career, so sending her to a horse with
There is actually quite a lot on her damline that would complement Storm Cat (such as Wild Again, Private Account, and Key to the Mint)...BUT for the money there are much better options out there.
For $60,000 (and maybe less) you can have a Rahy and for $30,000 you can have a Cozzene. You already know about Dreaming of Anna and Lewis Michael. Jiggs Coz, who took 3rd place in the Queen's Plate, is injured but he is a very nice horse and will be back on the Woodbine circuit next year. Of them, I'd go for Cozzene to duplicate the cross of Jiggs Coz and her cousin Alphabet Soup. He is also the oldest of the lot. If he still stands in 2008 that will almost certainly be his last year. He is so much more horse for $30,000 than Storm Cat is for $300,000 that it isn't even funny.
Option 3 is Giant's Causeway. He brings in Storm Cat and Rahy and is from the immediate family of Broad Brush's near-millionaire son Quest Star. I really, really like the way his family matches with her breeding. Broad Brush had excellent success with extra Hail to Reason, Blushing Groom, and returns of *Pocahontas...GC's bottom line brings in all three. Who knows his fee right now, but definitely you can get to him for well below $300k and he will get you a serious runner. If you can, ask Ashford if they can give you starters/winners/SP/SW for only his Northern Hemisphere foals--his Australian-breds are a disaster but his US/Euro breds are very, very, very good horses.
I like GIANTS CAUSEWAY a bunch with her (anyone from the STORM CAT family seems to be a decent choice), and RAHY is a favorite of mine. A Lot of it has to do with the resulting foal, and would I like to race him/her if I wasn't able to sell them as a yearling. I was given this shot at STORM CAT, and I am really excited to try it. BRUSHED BAYOU is physically spectacular (imho) and I think will add a great deal to the foal. And she is calm and level headed as any filly I've been around. And she is fast. I like DISTORTED HUMOR too. But I really want to try the 'ol man before it's too late. If the resulting foal is a colt, he will sell as a yearling. I might keep all the fillys MR. GREELEY was another excellent choice, but all of these have some years ahead of them (except RAHY, I am not sure how much longer we've got).
MR. GREELEY was another excellent choice, but all of these have some years ahead of them (except RAHY, I am not sure how much longer we've got).-
Rokeby Forever
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dray33 wrote:If the resulting foal is a colt, he will sell as a yearling.
Hi Dray,
Based on 2007 results, why would Storm Cat still be an option at his $300,000 price? Off his $500,000 fee in 2005, his yearlings in 2007 had a median of only $350,000 (yikes!). If you're looking to hit a "home run," aren't there other "high echelon" sires that now offer a better opportunity?
Anyhoo...good luck with Storm Cat. I'm not a Storm Cat fan, but I like to see PQ posters and friends have success in this business.
You're right, of course Roke. But I know for sure a STORM CAT yearling gets a lot of looks, especially if brought to the yearling sale by a big name,"neutral" farm/consignor. If it's a nice foal, your going to be okay. As for his '07 results, nothing spectacular. Many of the greats wained in the latter years (even Mr. P.) but still threw off a couple good ones now and then. To me, it's a one shot opportunity I couldn't pass up.
A.P vs Storm Cat
Have not been participating lately due to health reasons but am always interested in discussing the merits of A.P. . I think A.P. will be the greatest stallion of all time. He has, by far, the best females in the first 4 generations of any stallion that I have checked. The mares, top and bottom, in the first four generations have >40 Graded Stakes progeny among them. I have yet to find another stallion that comes anywhere close. A phenominal number of Black Type offspring as well.
So, if the stud fee was say, 25K, I might go with SC just for sentiment but if I'm paying 300K, I want the most bang for my buck and 20 years from now I would be very disappointed if I passed on A.P. in favor of SC.
So, if the stud fee was say, 25K, I might go with SC just for sentiment but if I'm paying 300K, I want the most bang for my buck and 20 years from now I would be very disappointed if I passed on A.P. in favor of SC.
Dray, I support your use of Storm Cat 100%.
Since the financial resources are not issue, I say go for it. I think others are having trouble getting over the financial hurdle and are not looking at this from the same view as you. In your case, it is like buying a piece of art… or a piece of history… I actually respect your ability and your attitude, (and I am envious of your position), to see past the dollars.
I completely understand wishing to use him. Despite those who dislike SC on this board, he will go down in history as a stallion who had a major impact on the breed. His crown might be tarnished, but, for now, he is still the king. Years from now, no matter what happens, you will be able to say, "... we sent a mare to Storm Cat...". Hopefully, you may even be a part of his legacy.
I also prefer the breeding to him over A.P. Indy, at least on paper. Sure there are other sires I might actually like somewhat better than Storm Cat, but you will have other shots at them. I like versatility... and I believe Storm Cat might provide more with her than A.P. Indy. She already has a versatile pedigree, why not send her to a sire known for getting top runners on dirt and turf?
Additionally, going to Storm Cat almost insures the foal will get looks and will most likely end up in a very positive racing environment (at least a commercially marketable one). You also have the ability, financially, to "push" your foal and if things don't go right, race it yourself. (Which, by the way, I would strongly consider... how many chances will you ever get to get your hands on a good Storm Cat, that you know has not been "fiddled" with.) So, if the foal is even “average”, this move does have some commercial viability.
Good luck! I hope you end up with a fantastic foal. I just want to see it (if I ever can make it back to Lexington).
Since the financial resources are not issue, I say go for it. I think others are having trouble getting over the financial hurdle and are not looking at this from the same view as you. In your case, it is like buying a piece of art… or a piece of history… I actually respect your ability and your attitude, (and I am envious of your position), to see past the dollars.
I completely understand wishing to use him. Despite those who dislike SC on this board, he will go down in history as a stallion who had a major impact on the breed. His crown might be tarnished, but, for now, he is still the king. Years from now, no matter what happens, you will be able to say, "... we sent a mare to Storm Cat...". Hopefully, you may even be a part of his legacy.
I also prefer the breeding to him over A.P. Indy, at least on paper. Sure there are other sires I might actually like somewhat better than Storm Cat, but you will have other shots at them. I like versatility... and I believe Storm Cat might provide more with her than A.P. Indy. She already has a versatile pedigree, why not send her to a sire known for getting top runners on dirt and turf?
Additionally, going to Storm Cat almost insures the foal will get looks and will most likely end up in a very positive racing environment (at least a commercially marketable one). You also have the ability, financially, to "push" your foal and if things don't go right, race it yourself. (Which, by the way, I would strongly consider... how many chances will you ever get to get your hands on a good Storm Cat, that you know has not been "fiddled" with.) So, if the foal is even “average”, this move does have some commercial viability.
Good luck! I hope you end up with a fantastic foal. I just want to see it (if I ever can make it back to Lexington).
Sums up my thinking very well, and thank you KAL. Every time I saw a Storm Cat as a yearling/2YO that had "the look", the price was silly, unaffordable. The last one was THE LEOPARD who I would love to have raced (without the pricetag). Missing out on these high-priced babies has been somewhat of a blessing to anyone who couldn't afford them, of course (based on the racing record) but, I would love to "give it a shot". And since I do tend to blend the racing with the selling, it's a great opportunity at the twilight of a stellar career. I just hope RAHY stays around for a couple more!