Big Brown's stud value now

[dray33]

WINSTROL is LEGAL

But that doesn't make it RIGHT.

it does not do any of the running......the horse does. it does not make him faster..granted it will pick his head up, improve his eating, make him aggressive....how many horses in training use winstrol ? bet you its around 80% or more.........Winstrol will not make your horse run any faster.

It enhances performance. That is fact. It doesn't matter the percent of people who use it. They can all run on it, the fact is simple. The horses improve exponentially when used. That is fact. There is a reason Dutrow wins at a 35% clip the first race after he claims a horse, legal or not. I agree, it is legal reenci... but look at the pp's for Saint Liam. Or Big Booster. You tell ME if it makes a difference. To some, it makes ALL the difference. Print doesn't lie. It is fact.

[Foggytrip]

Why do you think its a fact Winstrol improves a horses performance to a significant degree.

The reason most vets recommend Winstrol is because its a huge mark up. I can buy an amp of Winstrol for 3.50 cents, that is Zambon Winstrol, the best you can buy. I can get an overdosed IP version for 2 dollars an amp.

Dray, you buy at the 2yo sales, and sell at the training sales. Do you think the horses at those sales are free of Trenbolon Acetate, Winstrol, EQ, Deca, EPI, and blood enricheners?

We bought a horse last year that was absolutely blood doped. He crashed terribly out of the 2yo sales.

Winstrol is one of the few Steroids administered that is actually thereputic to these animals.

[dray33]

hey foggy. i don't even know what those medications are! I am SURE there is significant mark up on meds, but I can also assure you they are not administered because the vet can make a buck. Maybe thats why they haven't been outlawed, but it isn't the reason trainers use them. They use them to improve performance. And I will show you how in a sec.

First, I have to address a point you make: "do you think the horses at those sales are free of Trenbolon Acetate, Winstrol, EQ, Deca, EPI, and blood enricheners?"
No. But if I were to buy them, I can promise you one thing. Sell me a horse that deflates in the barn, and I will show you a consignor that wont ever get my business again. Look how sick we are. We inject race horses, now 2 year old in training horses. Now lets inject yearlings. Why not in-utero? Obviously the breed has benefited significantly from the rampant use of medications, lets keep it going. In 30 years, maybe we can get 2 starts per average, lifetime! Yipee!
You say:
"We bought a horse last year that was absolutely blood doped. He crashed terribly out of the 2yo sales."
Won't it be refreshing when this type of shenaningans stop?

Back to steroid usage in racing horses. Lets step back. First step... they are used for a reason, not just to make a coat shiny. If they didn't help a horses performance, how long would they be used for ya think? Second step: They improve a horses performance. How can I say that for sure? Is there proof either way? Just because you use them is NOT proof they work, so...

Let's look at real examples. Thats the lovely thing about our sport. The print dont lie. We have a bible to record our truths, and nothing can wipe that away... it is, for all intents and purposes, timeless...

Saint Liam. Great horse. Right? look at his pps. What do you see? What I see is a decent horse.
First 8 races (all over, churchill, saratoga) Breaks maiden, wins an allowance. not bad. Finishes second in the Iowa Derby... and finishes 10th in a graded stakes (G2) bid. Claimed in a 50k allowance by Dutrow... finishes 6th. 3 and a half months go by... not a race. But he wins first time out for Dutrow... as do 35% of his first off claim. Here's another thing we now KNOW. EVERY horse in the barn gets winstrol at least once a month. The next 12 races, 7 wins, 3 seconds, one third and one sixth. 7 Grade 1's. Of the 7 Grade 1's he is in, he wins 4, second in 2. What an amazing trainer. How about a horse like Big Booster? He was a nice 80's-90's beyer good looking thing. His first 30 races or so, I would consider him a nice upper allowance, stakes placed kinda fellow. Here's a horse that over the course of his first 4 years of racing ran in 12 stakes races... 7 of them Graded (6 G3, one G2) and came in 4th, 5th, 3rd, 7th, 3rd, 7th, 4th, 6th, 6th, 8th. He ran a freakin' 97 Beyer against English Channel, to finish 7th! He gets claimed (his claiming race record at the start of his 5th year was 1st for 50k, 9th for 62.5k), and was claimed by Mitchell for 50k, on March 24th, 07... came in 4th. He was put into the claiming game for a reason. Voila!

He runs one race, a 62.5 claimer, comes in 8th.. and then, watch this:

'07 races:
May 24th: Opt Claimer: 1st: 96 beyer
June 30th: G1 Stakes: 3rd: 104 beyer
Aug 19th: G1 Stakes: 5th: 90 beyer
Sept 29: G1 Stakes: 3rd: 104 beyer

in '08:
Feb 9th: G2 Stakes: 4th: 97 beyer
March 1: G1 Stakes: 10th: 96 beyer
March 29th: G3 Stakes: 3rd: 96 beyer
April 20th G2 Stakes: 1st: 102 beyer
June 1: Gallant Man stakes: 1st: 97 beyer.

Within a few races, he is throwing consistant 90's-100's beyers, and runs and places in Grade 1's, beats up Grade 2 horses. Maybe after the Dutrow incident, I've become overly skeptical and too jaded for my own good. The improvement might because the horse was gelded and excellent horsemanship. Oh, by the way, I knew the horse, and the original trainer. So I really hate this "it doesn't really do anything" defense. I know its legal. But to deny it helps the horses performance is to deny even what the trainers who use them advocate. Its unfathomable, mon frere.

At every level, in every application, the abuse must stop. The playing field must be leveled.

[Foggytrip]

Oh there is no question that Mr Dutrow can wave a magic wand. That being said its not the Winstrol that moves these horses forward. If that were the case every serious claiming outfit in the country would get the same results because they all use Winstrol. What Tricky Dick uses is obviously not a staple on the backside.

Drew, for every guy like you who decides not to buy from a consignor, there is a new guy that will. The industry needs to be regulated from the drugs on the babies, to raceday application, to the theivery and larsony that goes on at the sales. There is no easy way to fix this game, the disorder runs very deep. From the consignors, to the trainers, to the vets, its just a very corrupt industry. To think otherwise we would all be fooling ourselves.

To answer your question if it will be refreshing when this stuff stops...Absolutely, yes it would be. However I do not foresee it stopping. The crooks will always find a way to mask something, or use something illegal to push these animals past their limit.

Steroids are used for a reason, I agree. I do not agree that they aide in the horses racing as much as you do. I think they help with keeping a horse eating, and maybe certain steroids would help recoup a horses muscles quicker. However, I also feel they have a lot to do with Lasix being needed on almost all of our horses, and in most cases do more harm than good. There are a few theraputic steroids like Winstrol, which I feel have no negative property on a horse. Steroids that would help a horse, would be Deca, EQ, Tren, Primobolon, HGH, Clen, that kind of stuff would really make a difference in a horses disposition, aggressiveness, and possibly stamina. Winstrol is candy compared to some of the stuff these guys use. We cant even get into the blood doping that is happening, or the milkshaking. there is just so much to fix, its disheartening when I start to think about it

[horsenuts]

[quote="dray33"]hey foggy. i don't even know what those medications are! I am SURE there is significant mark up on meds, but I can also assure you they are not administered because the vet can make a buck. Maybe thats why they haven't been outlawed, but it isn't the reason trainers use them. They use them to improve performance. And I will show you how in a sec.

First, I have to address a point you make: "do you think the horses at those sales are free of Trenbolon Acetate, Winstrol, EQ, Deca, EPI, and blood enricheners?"
No. But if I were to buy them, I can promise you one thing. Sell me a horse that deflates in the barn, and I will show you a consignor that wont ever get my business again. Look how sick we are. We inject race horses, now 2 year old in training horses. Now lets inject yearlings. Why not in-utero? Obviously the breed has benefited significantly from the rampant use of medications, lets keep it going. In 30 years, maybe we can get 2 starts per average, lifetime! Yipee!
You say:
"We bought a horse last year that was absolutely blood doped. He crashed terribly out of the 2yo sales."
Won't it be refreshing when this type of shenaningans stop?

Back to steroid usage in racing horses. Lets step back. First step... they are used for a reason, not just to make a coat shiny. If they didn't help a horses performance, how long would they be used for ya think? Second step: They improve a horses performance. How can I say that for sure? Is there proof either way? Just because you use them is NOT proof they work, so...

Let's look at real examples. Thats the lovely thing about our sport. The print dont lie. We have a bible to record our truths, and nothing can wipe that away... it is, for all intents and purposes, timeless...

Saint Liam. Great horse. Right? look at his pps. What do you see? What I see is a decent horse.
First 8 races (all over, churchill, saratoga) Breaks maiden, wins an allowance. not bad. Finishes second in the Iowa Derby... and finishes 10th in a graded stakes (G2) bid. Claimed in a 50k allowance by Dutrow... finishes 6th. 3 and a half months go by... not a race. But he wins first time out for Dutrow... as do 35% of his first off claim. Here's another thing we now KNOW. EVERY horse in the barn gets winstrol at least once a month. The next 12 races, 7 wins, 3 seconds, one third and one sixth. 7 Grade 1's. Of the 7 Grade 1's he is in, he wins 4, second in 2. What an amazing trainer. How about a horse like Big Booster? He was a nice 80's-90's beyer good looking thing. His first 30 races or so, I would consider him a nice upper allowance, stakes placed kinda fellow. Here's a horse that over the course of his first 4 years of racing ran in 12 stakes races... 7 of them Graded (6 G3, one G2) and came in 4th, 5th, 3rd, 7th, 3rd, 7th, 4th, 6th, 6th, 8th. He ran a freakin' 97 Beyer against English Channel, to finish 7th! He gets claimed (his claiming race record at the start of his 5th year was 1st for 50k, 9th for 62.5k), and was claimed by Mitchell for 50k, on March 24th, 07... came in 4th. He was put into the claiming game for a reason. Voila!

He runs one race, a 62.5 claimer, comes in 8th.. and then, watch this:

'07 races:
May 24th: Opt Claimer: 1st: 96 beyer
June 30th: G1 Stakes: 3rd: 104 beyer
Aug 19th: G1 Stakes: 5th: 90 beyer
Sept 29: G1 Stakes: 3rd: 104 beyer

in '08:
Feb 9th: G2 Stakes: 4th: 97 beyer
March 1: G1 Stakes: 10th: 96 beyer
March 29th: G3 Stakes: 3rd: 96 beyer
April 20th G2 Stakes: 1st: 102 beyer
June 1: Gallant Man stakes: 1st: 97 beyer.

Within a few races, he is throwing consistant 90's-100's beyers, and runs and places in Grade 1's, beats up Grade 2 horses. Maybe after the Dutrow incident, I've become overly skeptical and too jaded for my own good. The improvement might because the horse was gelded and excellent horsemanship. Oh, by the way, I knew the horse, and the original trainer. So I really hate this "it doesn't really do anything" defense. I know its legal. But to deny it helps the horses performance is to deny even what the trainers who use them advocate. Its unfathomable, mon frere.


Keep in mind that Saint Liam's previous trainer may very well have used steroids on SL also. I have worked with many horses over the years and have seen large amounts of steroids used on many horses. Nonetheless, I have seen horses claimed/bought from steroid stables that raced steroid free and quite successfully after being purchased. Largely because they went to a better horseman's barn. I have also seen steroids used successfully as well. It goes both ways.


For all the flak Dutrow is receiving(and perhaps deservedly so) he is an excellent trainer in many regards. While he clearly uses steroids so do many if not most of his colleagues. Yet, he is still a better trainer then nearly any he competes with. His hiring of those master craftsman horshoers that held BB together for the TC is an example of what you get when you hire Dutrow as a trainer like him or not.

[dray33]

Keep in mind that Saint Liam's previous trainer may very well have used steroids on SL also. I have worked with many horses over the years and have seen large amounts of steroids used on many horses. Nonetheless, I have seen horses claimed/bought from steroid stables that raced steroid free and quite successfully after being purchased. Largely because they went to a better horseman's barn. I have also seen steroids used successfully as well. It goes both ways.


For all the flak Dutrow is receiving(and perhaps deservedly so) he is an excellent trainer in many regards. While he clearly uses steroids so do many if not most of his colleagues. Yet, he is still a better trainer then nearly any he competes with. His hiring of those master craftsman horshoers that held BB together for the TC is an example of what you get when you hire Dutrow as a trainer like him or not.

Understood. In some instances I would agree... we'll never know. But that type of dramatic improvement, time and again, over 3-4 months? What exactly is going on? The major variable is, to me, a first time, or BETTER administration of the medications. As for Dutrow receiving flak, you are 100% correct, he is an excellent horseman. Ban steroids, and the juice guys still remain on top. But the juice is there and they use it.

At what cost? How many owners had horses that might have done better, if only on steriods. How many of them could have used the artificial boost, and maybe stayed in the game? If the advantage is there, maybe we should make it mandatory to use steroids, so that we can see whos horse is the best. To hell with the breed.

[Foggytrip]

What needs to happen is extensive testing prerace, postrace. We need to test C02 levels, we need to test for blood enricheners, as well as excessive steroid use. Detention barns should be mandatory, especially on big racedays.

The breed is suffering not only because these horses are fragile, but because horses who probably arent that good, paper tigers are making it to the breeding shed. Those horses in turn breed more inferior racehores who need the drugs to compete. Its sickening. The breed is suffering greatly, and there is no regulation. It really is like the Wild West

[larrygene]

Foggy you are absolutely correct in every way.

[Foggytrip]

I know, its disturbing that this great game has become so common

[dray33]

What needs to happen is extensive testing prerace, postrace. We need to test C02 levels, we need to test for blood enricheners, as well as excessive steroid use. Detention barns should be mandatory, especially on big racedays.

The breed is suffering not only because these horses are fragile, but because horses who probably arent that good, paper tigers are making it to the breeding shed. Those horses in turn breed more inferior racehores who need the drugs to compete. Its sickening. The breed is suffering greatly, and there is no regulation. It really is like the Wild West

You sir, are correct. Well said.

[ageecee]

The minute a horse gets entereded into a race the testing should start.

1-CO2 levels
2-Blood doping
3-Blocking

And the tests have to come back before raceday. if positive the horse will not run and maybe be suspended for 60 days with a nice fine for the trainer. if negative then let the horse run.

[dray33]

You got it ageecee. I was told that in japan, they are in detention for a looooong time before a race. Anyone know about that?

[Foggytrip]

Dray, its insane what they do in Japan. They bet so much money nothing but honesty will be tolerated. They bar code the works, test, test barn days out. They do it how it is supposed to be done which is why they have quickly developed a fantastic product.

[dray33]

Sounds like they are staying one step ahead of the cheaters. How novel

[ageecee]

They ned to bar code the works in America. Too many false works going on at every track and i mean every track. Betting Public is getting false info.