turn of foot versus pure stamina- who are the stallions

[reenci]

[im an owner and breeder also....but its $$$$$suicide to breed for a 1 1/2 horse...YOU WONT MAKE THE COIN BACK......breeding a horse for a 1 1/4 at least you have a chance.........so most people breed for a miler....if your off target with your results you at least have a shot at a sprinter or a 1 1/8 type horse.....and they write tons of these type races.........now all kidding aside....who really cares or gives a flying hoot what they do overseas...........though if you want the stamina.......breed to the german stallions as they have some great stamina stallions.

[pokeyman]

I give up trying to get my point across to you.....

You take your sprinter mare and when you want to add stamina to breed a true distance horse to win any number of classic races you can go breed her to your miler stallion of choice and see what happens. I am sure they will magically produce an American classic horse for you.

Hopefully, breeders will have 1 1/2 stallions as options to breed to their sprint mares and maybe get an American Classic horse for 1 1/4.

We need a genepool of these horses to breed back to for stamina and soundness. I have found 1 1/2 stallions seem a bit more consistent with passing on stamina than 1 1/4 horses. In any event, for you to say all we need are sprint and miler stallions leaves me laughing. However, to each his own.......

Some of us breeders actually care about improving the breed and not just winning races.

[BargainBlueblood]

I think it's unfair (and perhaps unrealistic) to say some breeders "care about more than winning races," implying that folks who are breeding sprinter/milers are somehow irresponsible or don't want to improve the breed. No one is disputing that it would be nice if US tracks started carding more distance races, but at the end of the day, if you're not trying to breed a horse who can win races, then what are your goals exactly? Maybe no one is responding to this thread because statements like the above seem more designed to provoke an argument than to really delve deeply into the types of distance-oriented stallions who can still help breeders achieve success in what is indeed an increasingly speed-oriented marketplace.

[Elles]

According to a lot of people a horse has either speed or stamina.
http://www.pedigreequery.com/forum/view ... ed+stamina
But I think training also has a lot to do with it.
I find it hard to tell if a horse is a speed horse or a distance horse based on it's pedigree alone. For example the pedigree of Red Rum looks like a speed pedigree to me. And he started his career racing short distances.

Edit:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/silver+birch7
http://www.pedigreequery.com/hedgehunter
http://www.pedigreequery.com/amberleigh+house
I saw Amberleigh House at the National stud, rather small horse.
http://www.pedigreequery.com/montys+pass
Are these typical plodder pedigrees?

[Elles]

And do these horses have typical mile pedigrees:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._James% ... ace_Stakes
And how about this guy's pedigree:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/new+approach
With hindsight it is easier to pinpoint to certain ancestors to explain a horse's distance capacity. But how can you be sure before a horse starts training? Maybe some horses don't fit the mall people think they should fit into.

[BenB]

Papa Bull,s in the last King george and queen elizabeth stakes GR1
12 furlong, he was flying the last straight from last up to a moment first
beiing battled out by the winner Duke of Marmelade.

The jockey made a mistake by gooiing to the dukes side otherwise he certainly would have won.

In europe were are looking for top 12 furlong horses, because in that category is reaal money to earn very much more than with 5 furlongs sprints

[pokeyman]

I think it's unfair (and perhaps unrealistic) to say some breeders "care about more than winning races," implying that folks who are breeding sprinter/milers are somehow irresponsible or don't want to improve the breed. No one is disputing that it would be nice if US tracks started carding more distance races, but at the end of the day, if you're not trying to breed a horse who can win races, then what are your goals exactly? Maybe no one is responding to this thread because statements like the above seem more designed to provoke an argument than to really delve deeply into the types of distance-oriented stallions who can still help breeders achieve success in what is indeed an increasingly speed-oriented marketplace.

I definitely did not start this thread to be argumentative. I am sorry if you feel that way.

Yes, I am trying to consider stallion options for my mares for next year as they were left open this year.

I absolutely would like to improve/maintain stamina in my bloodlines. In fact, every time I breed, I am looking to get a filly to bring back into our broodmare herd after racing. So, for me, it is not simply about winning races at this particular moment and that is it. Of course, we want to win races but I have long term goals as a breeder.

I feel it is my responsibility as a breeder to:

1) Breed sound horses (in wind and limb) that can race drug free

2) Breed horses with turn of foot

3) Breed horses that can stay on for a distance of ground

4) Breed horses that are sane

I think, as breeders, we should all be concerned with the modern emphasis on quick maturing sprint oriented pedigrees (due to commercial interests).

I worry that we have become a country that once bred to race and now our goal is to hit with a big pinhook at the sales. By breeding to sell, we tend to overlook late maturing, sound horses with stamina in favor of a more early maturing sprinter.

I think it is crucial that we maintain a foundation of stamina horses (who also had a turn of foot) in this country.

[pokeyman]

Papa Bull,s in the last King george and queen elizabeth stakes GR1
12 furlong, he was flying the last straight from last up to a moment first
beiing battled out by the winner Duke of Marmelade.

The jockey made a mistake by gooiing to the dukes side otherwise he certainly would have won.

In europe were are looking for top 12 furlong horses, because in that category is reaal money to earn very much more than with 5 furlongs sprints

I watched the race...great race. Duke of marmelade was very, very game. He seemed to relish being eyeballed so perhaps you are correct!

[BenB]

He should have been where he was, in the middle of the track.
And just rallying straight on, it would saved him a couple of meters,yards and he (the horse) would have been much more balanced in the closing stages

[pokeyman]

I agree...he shouldn't have eyeballed him. However, Duke was very impressive. For him to maintain his run for the amount of time he did, get passed, and fight on back was the mark of a true Champion. He didn't just fight back but was pulling away strong at the end while Papal Bull was all out...

I think he very well might be the real deal.

[reenci]

I give up trying to get my point across to you.....

You take your sprinter mare and when you want to add stamina to breed a true distance horse to win any number of classic races you can go breed her to your miler stallion of choice and see what happens. I am sure they will magically produce an American classic horse for you.

Hopefully, breeders will have 1 1/2 stallions as options to breed to their sprint mares and maybe get an American Classic horse for 1 1/4.

We need a genepool of these horses to breed back to for stamina and soundness. I have found 1 1/2 stallions seem a bit more consistent with passing on stamina than 1 1/4 horses. In any event, for you to say all we need are sprint and miler stallions leaves me laughing. However, to each his own.......

Some of us breeders actually care about improving the breed and not just winning races.

i use a mare that can sprint and run a distance....thats my point.....i never said i use a sprinter as a broodmare......find the best of both worlds and you will have a lot less failures . now im not saying it works all the time.......nothing is for sure.......as for improving the breed....unless you have real deep pockets your strategy will break you long before you will have a impact.......but i really wish you luck....and would be more than happy to eat crow.....so i hope you breed that belmont winner !! good luck.

[Jenny]

pokeyman
I just started reading this thread. I agree with you on so many points. I would like to breed mostly for soundness and then for stamina. That is why we purchased Gone Fishin. He had a really good turn of foot and could also go a distance with speed to finish. He raced 60 times so the soundness was there for sure. We really think he will add to our mares. Another stallion by Honor Grades (which you know is a half to A.P Indy) is Honor Glide he made well over 1.2mil? and he ran classic distances and had a real kick at the end. Although like Gone Fishin only ran on the turf. Some people seem to steer away from that, but it doesn't mean they will only produce turf runners. Just my two cents worth. if it is even worth that much.

[pokeyman]

pokeyman
I just started reading this thread. I agree with you on so many points. I would like to breed mostly for soundness and then for stamina. That is why we purchased Gone Fishin. He had a really good turn of foot and could also go a distance with speed to finish. He raced 60 times so the soundness was there for sure. We really think he will add to our mares. Another stallion by Honor Grades (which you know is a half to A.P Indy) is Honor Glide he made well over 1.2mil? and he ran classic distances and had a real kick at the end. Although like Gone Fishin only ran on the turf. Some people seem to steer away from that, but it doesn't mean they will only produce turf runners. Just my two cents worth. if it is even worth that much.

Jenny, thank goodness there are more of us out there on the same page!

Your boy looks great! If my turf mare didn't have a Northern Dancer already I would take a serious look at him (as 3 crosses might be too many)!

Plus, Gone Fishin could sire great on that synthetic you have up there in Canada. If there ever was a place to stand a turf stallion with unlimited possibilities it would be Canada!!

My turf mare is named Emeralino. I don't know her stamina limitations but she is by Trempolino and out of a 2 turn female family-tail female Bold Irish. Most of her kids won over 2 turns with one winning at 1 1/8. I think a half sister to her produced a steeplechase winner so I am thinking she is stamina oriented. Shockingly, she has never been bred to a turf stallion until we bought her and bred her last year.

I just got a Cozzene colt from her this spring. We gave her the year off due to a late cover/foaling date. However, I am leaning towards Sky Classic right now for 2009 (with Theatrical second). I would love Rahy but need his stud fee sliced in half! LOL

Best Wishes to you with your breeding program!

[Jenny]

Thank you Pokeyman. We are trying our best. His babies look stunning. So we are hoping there are some good runners in there. It is a very difficult and expensive process to stand your own stallion, then wait to get some of the babies to the races. Here is hoping to a very good horse to pay for it all!!!!

[pokeyman]

Jenny, send you a PM.