Sire Line Prejudices
Moderators: Roguelet, WaveMaster, madelyn
Hi Toccet,
There was another thread where some people mentioned Storm Cat as a source for breathing problems and it's a prejudice that I'd not heard before nor seen in my experience so I called Ric Waldman of Overbrook who was surprised and denied that it is a trait that Storm Cat is known to pass on.
A person on this forum mentioned to me (privately) that Catenius gets foals with breathing problems and this person had the potential to have been exposed to many of his foals.
Storm Cat was the dominant sales sire for nearly a decade and by performance and commercial demand for his stock it's not likely that breathing problems were an issue for his get. Catienus is a respectable sire of runners and I don't have enough experience with his foals to comment past the fact that his figures don't reflect some enduring problem.
I realize that people use prejudices for their own purposes but unlike a claim of 'bad legs', traits that can be easily viewed, breathing and unsoundness aren't as easily determined and I tend to be more sensitive to these claims without substantiation.
I reviewed Pulpit's get for unsoundness and found that his foals, as a group based on number of starts, aren't unsound, but that his young colts that race in the best company have some notable exceptions like Tapit, Sky Mesa and Oratory. Is that really so different from many other sires?
I consider this thread topic to be valid and interesting but prejudices don't even approach potential fact until and unless they are viewed in the larger picture. Yes, I do find that Halo line sires can get rough or coarse individuals more often than other sire lines. It's amusing to me to look for Princequillo in horses with big ears. Beyond that I tend to implement 'prejudices' with care and concern especially when there are more salient indicators available (the sire's record).
I have no prejudice nor uncertainty in stating that Distorted Humor, no matter what the foals may look like, has a spectacular record in getting the best foal from ordinary mares. I reviewed 40 of his stakes winners and 38 were the best foal that their dam had produced. That's compelling.
I wish I could be as discriminating to include the broodmare sire in the equation but that would mean that there is dominant nicking involved as well and that's rare in and of itself.
Regards,
Pete
There was another thread where some people mentioned Storm Cat as a source for breathing problems and it's a prejudice that I'd not heard before nor seen in my experience so I called Ric Waldman of Overbrook who was surprised and denied that it is a trait that Storm Cat is known to pass on.
A person on this forum mentioned to me (privately) that Catenius gets foals with breathing problems and this person had the potential to have been exposed to many of his foals.
Storm Cat was the dominant sales sire for nearly a decade and by performance and commercial demand for his stock it's not likely that breathing problems were an issue for his get. Catienus is a respectable sire of runners and I don't have enough experience with his foals to comment past the fact that his figures don't reflect some enduring problem.
I realize that people use prejudices for their own purposes but unlike a claim of 'bad legs', traits that can be easily viewed, breathing and unsoundness aren't as easily determined and I tend to be more sensitive to these claims without substantiation.
I reviewed Pulpit's get for unsoundness and found that his foals, as a group based on number of starts, aren't unsound, but that his young colts that race in the best company have some notable exceptions like Tapit, Sky Mesa and Oratory. Is that really so different from many other sires?
I consider this thread topic to be valid and interesting but prejudices don't even approach potential fact until and unless they are viewed in the larger picture. Yes, I do find that Halo line sires can get rough or coarse individuals more often than other sire lines. It's amusing to me to look for Princequillo in horses with big ears. Beyond that I tend to implement 'prejudices' with care and concern especially when there are more salient indicators available (the sire's record).
I have no prejudice nor uncertainty in stating that Distorted Humor, no matter what the foals may look like, has a spectacular record in getting the best foal from ordinary mares. I reviewed 40 of his stakes winners and 38 were the best foal that their dam had produced. That's compelling.
I wish I could be as discriminating to include the broodmare sire in the equation but that would mean that there is dominant nicking involved as well and that's rare in and of itself.
Regards,
Pete
Has a palomino jean that pop up some.
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
Hi Folks,
I believe that you've got it wrong.
Phalaris was responsible for WWI and the Back Sox Scandal (despite being a Brit he was an avid baseball fan and a notorius gambler) but Teddy initiated the Great Depression when he sold off all of his substantial holdings.
Hyperion may have initiated a wave of anti-semiticism that has been cited as a root cause of WWII (Donner: Paths To War, pgs 111-116 and Poczny: That Damn'd Horse, pgs 8-226) with his innocent remark that he had, 'never been ridden by a Jewish jockey'. Hyperion, in later years, often wore a yarmulke to repudiate these claims that his comments were a spark that led to racial tensions.
Regards,
Pete
I believe that you've got it wrong.
Phalaris was responsible for WWI and the Back Sox Scandal (despite being a Brit he was an avid baseball fan and a notorius gambler) but Teddy initiated the Great Depression when he sold off all of his substantial holdings.
Hyperion may have initiated a wave of anti-semiticism that has been cited as a root cause of WWII (Donner: Paths To War, pgs 111-116 and Poczny: That Damn'd Horse, pgs 8-226) with his innocent remark that he had, 'never been ridden by a Jewish jockey'. Hyperion, in later years, often wore a yarmulke to repudiate these claims that his comments were a spark that led to racial tensions.
Regards,
Pete
Has a palomino jean that pop up some.
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
-
geowarrior
- Leading Sire
- Posts: 3593
- Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2006 12:45 pm
- Location: Spokane, WA
Pete, I believe it was not Toccet but me that had heard a rumor of breathing problems passed on by Storm Cat. So don't blame poor Toccet. I mentioned it because I partly hoped for clarification and also because the thread was cleverly designed to talk about prejudices which might or might not have merit. After all, what does unsoundness in the legs really mean?
Ellen Parker likes to bring up Native Dancer and Raise a Native, but Native Dancer had osselets and Raise a Native bowed tendons as far as I know. I'm not an expert on horse anatomy by any means but I understood that an osselet is a kind of arthritic growth on the ankle whereas a bowed tendon is as Monty Python would say, something completely different. So I don't view those two injuries as a sireline passing on something, and when I see unspecified 'leg unsoundness' I just ignore it until I hear a description and some verifiable data that the problem has been passed on to progeny.
Thanks for doing the research and clarifying that regardless of the sometimes less than supermodel knees that he passes on, at least the Storm Cat progeny can breathe.
The jury may be out on this as it is still early in the sire career of Tiznow, but I have observed (and I think Toccet actually was keeping a database) that young Tiznows are easily injured. I believe that time may indicate that he is another line like A.P. Indy that is slow maturing. Well Armed certainly showed today that if you can bring them on carefully the Tiznows can be quite durable. We also had the return of Slew's Tiznow with a win yesterday.
Ellen Parker likes to bring up Native Dancer and Raise a Native, but Native Dancer had osselets and Raise a Native bowed tendons as far as I know. I'm not an expert on horse anatomy by any means but I understood that an osselet is a kind of arthritic growth on the ankle whereas a bowed tendon is as Monty Python would say, something completely different. So I don't view those two injuries as a sireline passing on something, and when I see unspecified 'leg unsoundness' I just ignore it until I hear a description and some verifiable data that the problem has been passed on to progeny.
Thanks for doing the research and clarifying that regardless of the sometimes less than supermodel knees that he passes on, at least the Storm Cat progeny can breathe.
The jury may be out on this as it is still early in the sire career of Tiznow, but I have observed (and I think Toccet actually was keeping a database) that young Tiznows are easily injured. I believe that time may indicate that he is another line like A.P. Indy that is slow maturing. Well Armed certainly showed today that if you can bring them on carefully the Tiznows can be quite durable. We also had the return of Slew's Tiznow with a win yesterday.
Hi Geo and Toccet,
I’m pretty ordinary, a shade under 8’ tall with heavy white (NOT grey) fur. My feet are large but half a Michelin properly strapped on does quite well (Goodyear sucks) in the mountains where I live. Facially my avatar is a good likeness. Yeti is the politically correct term.
My comments on Storm Cat and Catienus were empirical - no research.
Toccet,
My apologies if I offended you. No blame was mentioned or intended but I used your comments to make the point that these prejudices should be scrutinizing against the larger picture.
Excellent point and despite the proliferated use of the term there is no clear definition. Are the injuries to young Tiznow foals due to unsoundness or premature use? Are the injuries catastrophic or career-ending or do they return to the track and how do they fare whey they return? I think Tiznow is a made sire now.
It’s entirely possible that a sire (or dam) can pass negative traits that they themselves didn’t manifest. Since Ellen isn’t able to defend herself here I don’t want to comment past that she seems to have a belief (prejudice) that Native Dancer blood has the potential to add (or cause) unsoundness.
I’ve found that use and environment are the most important indicators of potential unsoundness. Press a horse to perform before they are physically ready to do so and they have a greater chance of injury. Though it sounds like common sense it’s hard to change the desire to prove expensive young stock at the earliest chance possible.
Regards,
Pete
I’m pretty ordinary, a shade under 8’ tall with heavy white (NOT grey) fur. My feet are large but half a Michelin properly strapped on does quite well (Goodyear sucks) in the mountains where I live. Facially my avatar is a good likeness. Yeti is the politically correct term.
geowarrior wrote:Pete, I believe it was not Toccet but me that had heard a rumor of breathing problems passed on by Storm Cat. So don't blame poor Toccet.
Thanks for doing the research and clarifying that regardless of the sometimes less than supermodel knees that he passes on, at least the Storm Cat progeny can breathe.
My comments on Storm Cat and Catienus were empirical - no research.
Toccet,
My apologies if I offended you. No blame was mentioned or intended but I used your comments to make the point that these prejudices should be scrutinizing against the larger picture.
geowarrior wrote: After all, what does unsoundness in the legs really mean?
Excellent point and despite the proliferated use of the term there is no clear definition. Are the injuries to young Tiznow foals due to unsoundness or premature use? Are the injuries catastrophic or career-ending or do they return to the track and how do they fare whey they return? I think Tiznow is a made sire now.
geowarrior wrote:Ellen Parker likes to bring up Native Dancer and Raise a Native, but Native Dancer had osselets and Raise a Native bowed tendons as far as I know. I'm not an expert on horse anatomy by any means but I understood that an osselet is a kind of arthritic growth on the ankle whereas a bowed tendon is as Monty Python would say, something completely different. So I don't view those two injuries as a sireline passing on something, and when I see unspecified 'leg unsoundness' I just ignore it until I hear a description and some verifiable data that the problem has been passed on to progeny.
It’s entirely possible that a sire (or dam) can pass negative traits that they themselves didn’t manifest. Since Ellen isn’t able to defend herself here I don’t want to comment past that she seems to have a belief (prejudice) that Native Dancer blood has the potential to add (or cause) unsoundness.
I’ve found that use and environment are the most important indicators of potential unsoundness. Press a horse to perform before they are physically ready to do so and they have a greater chance of injury. Though it sounds like common sense it’s hard to change the desire to prove expensive young stock at the earliest chance possible.
Regards,
Pete
Has a palomino jean that pop up some.
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
Hi Pete and all--
No Pete, you didn't offend me at all, but I think the confusing point was that I never mentioned breathing problems with SC, but knee and heart problems.
I am keeping my own database, which has 525 horses or so, and tracks sire, damsire, female family, age, type of injury, races run, sireline at various stages, even the dominant non-"big 3" stallions in pedigree (Fox, Crab, etc). That last is probably fluff, but I'm keeping an open mind.
And of course I hope you noticed I said "methinks" and not that I KNOW.
I agree that Tiznow is becoming an impressive stud--but that his young ones need time to mature.
My database does not include track surface, but does EXCLUDE injuries that I know to be freak accidents, self-inflicted, or that came from falling over other horses, etc.
I'm not using it currently for anything but my own use, as I am practicing "buying" yearlings based on their pedigrees, looks if available, and my hunches and predjudices, I'll admit.
So far my 2006 models are about 70% working out, 50% racing, and I have 3 stakes winners ( 1 graded 2 ungraded); only 2 minor injuries that I know of so far; sore shins and a non-described "setback". That's out of 55 horses.
I used my database to throw some out before I committed to these 55, and I think it helped.
I don't know if these stats are above average for an owner, but I suspect they might be. Luck? Skill? Time will tell.
No Pete, you didn't offend me at all, but I think the confusing point was that I never mentioned breathing problems with SC, but knee and heart problems.
I am keeping my own database, which has 525 horses or so, and tracks sire, damsire, female family, age, type of injury, races run, sireline at various stages, even the dominant non-"big 3" stallions in pedigree (Fox, Crab, etc). That last is probably fluff, but I'm keeping an open mind.
And of course I hope you noticed I said "methinks" and not that I KNOW.
I agree that Tiznow is becoming an impressive stud--but that his young ones need time to mature.
My database does not include track surface, but does EXCLUDE injuries that I know to be freak accidents, self-inflicted, or that came from falling over other horses, etc.
I'm not using it currently for anything but my own use, as I am practicing "buying" yearlings based on their pedigrees, looks if available, and my hunches and predjudices, I'll admit.
So far my 2006 models are about 70% working out, 50% racing, and I have 3 stakes winners ( 1 graded 2 ungraded); only 2 minor injuries that I know of so far; sore shins and a non-described "setback". That's out of 55 horses.
I used my database to throw some out before I committed to these 55, and I think it helped.
I don't know if these stats are above average for an owner, but I suspect they might be. Luck? Skill? Time will tell.
All shouting does is make you lose your voice.
----Arrested Development
----Arrested Development