Should FusaichiPegasus & Giant'sCauseway stud fees go up

[ef]

EF- since you obviously follow GC heavily- what are the second crop doing- his first US? By now they should definitely be getting ready to start!

Hi Ruffian,


Of GC's second crop, only 2 have started so far (Glasnas Giant and Cover Drive), both in England. Around 50 of his 158 2year olds are in Europe or Japan.

Of his US 2 year olds, I haven't seen any runners yet. A couple are getting ready, though. The following have been working, in case you want to keep an eye out on them:

1. Dancing Giant, C, Wild Heart Dancing (Farma Way)
2. Fairy Princess, F, Rajmata (Known Fact)
3. Gray Star, C, Fountain Lake (Vigors) --> he's been working quite frequently
4. First Samurai, C, Freddie Frisson (Dixieland Band)
5. Harriett Lane, F, Double Park (Lycius)
6. Ocean Melody, F, Chipeta Springs (Alydar)
7. Stonesider, C, Added Gold (Gilded Time) --> he's been working quite frequently and is with Pletcher
8. Stormfest, C, Isle Go West (Gone West)
9. Everything Good, F, Attitude (Capote)
10. Harrigan, C, Golden Aster (Seeking the Gold)
11. Giant Fun, C, Funistrada (Fappiano)
12. Giant Canal, F, Panama Canal (Gulch)
13. Rewarding Return, F, Many Happy Returns (Danzig)
14. I Believe In Me, C, I Believe in You (Pleasant Tap)
15. Kirkela, F, Tomorrow's Song (Apalachee)
16. Stormer, F, Penny Mint (Cox's Ridge).

Most of these guys have only worked a time or two.

Hope this helps!

ef

[FOS]

hi ef

You wrote (among other things) "As only 11 out of 21 of the Giant's Causeways who are based in the US have even run on dirt, this idea that they have had a million dirt opportunities is not quite fair."

ef...I recommend (for starters)....it's probably not wise to play a numbers game with GC...I suggest that's probably going to backfire on you almost everytime because his percentages seem to be embarrassing (at least so far).

Understandably...Coolmore seems to try and get around such uninspiring (or uncomplimentary) stats...they often seem to just use names (rarely do they use numbers that can be distilled into percentages that might expose their stallions' shortcomings). By doing that all we hear are the names of the good ones...not the fact that maybe (as in the case of GC) there are only 4 or 5 stakes winners (all in Europe on the turf by the way) from 137 named first crop foals...and only one runner (so far) that has earned a stakes-placing on the dirt.

As for your "million dirt opportunities" line, I don't know where you got that...but I'd like to remind you that GC received an opportunity (upon his retirement) that might be unprecedented EVER in the history of this industry.

As you are probably aware...GC's first northern hemisphere crop is comprised of no less than 137 named foals (per TB-Times 2005 stallion directory). Of the mares that it took to produce that HUGE crop...41 were sent to Ireland from the US to be bred to Giant's Causeway (his first year at stud). ALL 41 were pronounced in foal...and a significant number of them were mares with strong "dirt" connections. Many returned to the US to foal. I believe it's fair to say that GC's support (by US breeders) was a testimonial to the confidence that they had in this brilliant champion racehorse's prospects for success as a sire...in North America (and certainly there was an expectation [or at the very least a strong hope] by many that he would get quality "dirt" horses]. I suggest that for anyone to attempt to have us believe otherwise (now) is simply revisionist...and not the way it was.

Please allow me to remind you of the following. His first year at stud (in Ireland)...GC's stud fee was the equivalent of approx US$115,000 payable Oct 1 non-refundable...and including the costs of airfare/travel...board...veterinary...insurance...etc etc etc, the out-of-pocket production costs of each first crop GC foal (from each of the 41 US mares) probably increased into the vicinity of $160,000+-...and that does not take into account amortizing the cost (or value) of the mare.

For comparison's sake...and to put it into some perspective...those 41 US mares alone (ALL of which were reported to be In-Foal) represented more than the total size of of Successful Appeal's (North America's Leading Freshman Sire of 2004) first crop (which was a mere 35 named foals per TB-Times stallion directory).

Very simply...I suggest that the quantity and quality of Giant's Causeway's opportunities were nothing less than incredible, possibly unprecedented...and for anyone to infer or suggest otherwise (I believe) is without merit.

Regarding his stud fee...maybe some international racing aficionados don't care or need to justify GC's stud fee and/or his accomplishments as a sire in relation to his opportunities...but for a large number of serious, credible North American commercial breeders to consider paying $200k to breed to him (based on what he's done thus far) is difficult to imagine. I don't believe that you (or possibly anyone for that matter) can make a compelling (and/or convincing) case (right now) to those breeders to justify GC's northern hemisphere US$200,000 stud fee...but your enthusuasm is admirable.

Sounds to me that LSB got it right when she wrote re: Giant's Causeway and FuPeg "I happen to really like both those stallions and even I think their current stud fees are ridiculous. I also think the fact that their fees are re-adjusted every few months is equally ludicrous."

ef...All Things Considered...would you pay (right now) US$200,000 (or even US$150,000) plus tax of course...of your hard-earned money, to breed to Giant's Causeway?

Best to you.

Respectfully

[ef]

FOS,

I'm not going to go through and reply item-by-item, because we've had this argument before, and we're obviously not convincing each other. I am not arguing that Giant's Causeway has had great success in this country so far. He hasn't. I'm not arguing that he hasn't had opportunity, because he has. All I'm saying is that he has had significantly less opportunity on the dirt in the United States than one might believe AT THIS POINT, because: 1) his first foals are European bred and MOST ARE STILL IN EUROPE! 2) of his approx. 35 US based three year olds, only 11 have even started on the dirt. 3) and of his first American two year olds, 0 have started.

As of this very second, I cannot understand how you can argue that Giant's Causeway has had a better opportunity on the American dirt than, to mention a few, A.P. Indy, Forty Niner, and, most recently, Fusaichi Pegasus have had (and, in the next few years, Empire Maker, Mineshaft, and Vindication). I am not attempting to be dishonest. I just do not understand how can such a thing be possible for a stallion with about 35 US 3 year olds (many of whom are out of European turf mares), in comparison to these stallions with full US crops of speedy, dirt bred offspring.

Again, I am NOT arguing that Giant's Causeway has achieved a lot on the dirt so far. Such an argument would make me a blind jackass, because he has only had three US dirt winners so far. What I am saying is that it is simply too early to judge him. Let's let his first US crop race before judging him.

Would I pay 200,000 right now? Probably not. I would probably pay 125K to 150K. I like the sound of a Guineas winner myself .

[FOS]

hi ef

Respectfully...not an argument...just a spirited debate.

You wrote "All I'm saying is that he has had significantly less opportunity on the dirt in the United States than one might believe AT THIS POINT, because: 1) his first foals are European bred and MOST ARE STILL IN EUROPE! 2) of his approx. 35 US based three year olds, only 11 have even started on the dirt. 3) and of his first American two year olds, 0 have started."

Let's take one at a time...you wrote: "1) his first foals are European bred and MOST ARE STILL IN EUROPE!"

ef...many of his first foals are American-bred and even some that are European-bred (as you call them) are actually the result of American mares WITH DIRT CONNECTIONS that were sent to be bred to him but were left to foal across the pond.

Consider this example, GC's 3-yo daughter Charm The Giant was bred in Ireland by Deborah Helene McAnally. But don't be misled by the fact that Charm The Giant's an Irish-bred...her dam Olympic Charmer (approx $500k earner) was a multiple G2 winner ON THE DIRT at Hollywood Park (for Deborah McAnally) and was trained by (of course) Ron McAnally. Olympic Charmer was a BRILLIANT FAST filly on the DIRT...and smoked when she won the G2 Railbird S (ON THE DIRT) in 1:21...carrying highweight of 119 lbs.

Regardless of her dam's brilliant multiple G2 victories on the DIRT (the only surface over which she won her graded races)...isn't it interesting that McAnally placed their Irish-bred Giant's Causeway filly (who's out of a multiple graded SW on the dirt) on the grass...NOT THE DIRT...hmmm. Not a knock...just an interesting fact which seems to successfully challenge your lack-of-dirt-opportunities premise. Many other stallion managers wish they would be so lucky to attract this kind of mare (like Olympic Charmer) to the court of their stallion(s).

You wrote "2) of (Giant's Causeway's) approx. 35 US based three year olds, only 11 have even started on the dirt."

I'll trust that your above reference is correct, if so, isn't it fair to speculate that if only 11 have started on the dirt...and so few have won on that surface...that maybe the turf is where they might be better suited. Or is it possible that a high percentage of the GC's, regardless whether on dirt or turf, have limited ability?

As for the number "35 US based three year olds" (your words)...I suggest that although there may be only 35 GC 3yo's in the US (your stats)...and that is only a fraction of his total first crop of 137 named foals (per TB-Times 2005 stallion directory)...35 is still a very significant number of 3-yo's on North American soil from which to get an idea what kind of horses they are (and as previously mentioned, many have DIRT connections). As you are very aware...Successful Appeal (for example) had a total first foal crop of 35 named foals (per TB-Times 2005 stallion directory) and as you know he earned the title North America's Leading Freshman Sire for 2004...which he accomplished based on a $5,000 stud fee & a book of (arguably) pretty ordinary mares. You can draw your own conclusions...but I suggest that if a stallion's got it in him...nothing can stop him.

You wrote "3) and of his first American two year olds, 0 have started."

First of all...your comment creates the perception that GC did not have American-bred 2-yo's prior to this year...he did...he had (for example) Florida and Kentucky-bred 2-yo's in his first crop of racing age, last year. Regardless...his lack of 2-yo starters actually surprises me.

Believe it or not...I would like to see GC be a successful sire in the US (and to a large degree on the dirt). But he has disappointed me (an understatement I assure you) thus far...and I expect it's fair to say that many others are very disappointed also...and have lost confidence in him (as I have)...especially knowing and/or understanding the HUGE opportunities he received.

As for his $200,000 stud fee...I still believe LSB is on target with her description "ridiculous."

But with his racing resume...and pedigree...I suggest a big stud fee might be justified (to US commercial breeders anyway) if he got plenty of top-class dirt horses (including graded and G1 stakes-winners on the dirt also)...coupled with an impressive (or at the very least reasonably respectable) percentage of stakes winners (in general).

ef, I expect that GC will get some quality American runners (and on the dirt), but it appears he is defining himself (despite the opportunities) to be something other than what many had hoped for...

...and he seems to be on the receiving end of a lot of negative commentary (and/or scrutiny)...from North American breeders at this time.

A couple of nice dirt "super-stars" might turn things around quicker than a blink...but that's obviously easier said than done.

Best to you.

Respectfully

[LSB]

Giant's Causeway got another stakes winner this afternoon. My Typhoon won the Hilltop Breeders Cup Stakes (1 mile and 1/16 on the turf) at Pimlico.

[Ruffian]

YEA!!! I knew she could would do something... was it just stakes or graded?

[LSB]

It was "just" a 75K stakes, but still a nice win.

[Ruffian]

Considering what her halves can do (Galileo, Black Sam, Melikah, Urban Ocean) she should have been going through the G1 stakes like no bodies business, I suppose that is why NOTHING is a sure fire thing in TB

And I know they can't be considered 'halves' but still the GC's she really should be great!

I can't wait for the Green Desert x Urban Sea- That is going to be one heck of a horse- considering with Stamina she produced Galileo, UO, Black Sam & Melikah with part speed 1 -1 1/4 My Typhoon then the absolute sprinter- should be a real one to catch- or nothing...

[LSB]

My Typhoon has 2 wins in 3 starts and it's still early in her three year old year. I wouldn't write her off just yet.

[ef]

Yowza. Shamardal just became his sire's 2nd classic winner from his first crop, by winning the French 2000 Guineas today at Longchamp. Congrats to him- redemption after his Dubai flop!

[Ruffian]

EF- has he got any in the Irish 2000? Okay if I wasn't before I am most assuredly now on the GC bandwagon--- <GC fillies> I suppose there are at least a 1000 to choose from (colts and fillies combined)