Two things about Lion Heart that really impressed me were his natural speed and the fact that he ran without LASIX.
Makes me think he has some real race horse genes.
Bandini
Moderators: Roguelet, WaveMaster, madelyn
Pete,
Very good points. My main issue with Lion Heart is that he came from what I might classify as a weaker crop (one with a lot of early retirements and inconsistency) and in his bigger wins the Hollywood Futurity and the Haskell, I would submit that he didn't beat much. I don't think he's grossly overpriced though and he is quite a nice-looking horse and was a more precocious racehorse than his very popular sire. He's just not really my cup of tea, but I can see his appeal whereas I see no appeal in Bandini (watch him become leading sire now).
Very good points. My main issue with Lion Heart is that he came from what I might classify as a weaker crop (one with a lot of early retirements and inconsistency) and in his bigger wins the Hollywood Futurity and the Haskell, I would submit that he didn't beat much. I don't think he's grossly overpriced though and he is quite a nice-looking horse and was a more precocious racehorse than his very popular sire. He's just not really my cup of tea, but I can see his appeal whereas I see no appeal in Bandini (watch him become leading sire now).
A small correction: Vindication stood his first year at stud (2004) for 50K. There was so much demand at that price that this year he stands for 60K.
Lion Heart's family is coming along nicely. Satin Sunrise has yearling filly by Menifee and after being open last year, she was bred this year to Mineshaft. French Satin's first foal is a 2005 Tiznow filly. She's currently in foal to Grand Slam.
Lion Heart's family is coming along nicely. Satin Sunrise has yearling filly by Menifee and after being open last year, she was bred this year to Mineshaft. French Satin's first foal is a 2005 Tiznow filly. She's currently in foal to Grand Slam.
hi Pete
You wrote "I think Bandini will stand for $20,000........."
Pete...it won't surprise me to see it higher. Consider this...I expect the Ashford/Coolmore rationale might be that Claiborne's Strong Hope is a G2 winner and is by an Ashford stallion (Grand Slam) that stands for $85,000...
...whereas Bandini is a G1 winner and is by an Ashford stallion (Fusaichi Pegasus) that stands for $150,000.
Can I justify it...NO...but can I understand the case to be made...YES...therefore I can rationalize it...as I expect Ashford/Coolmore will also.
Best to you.
Respectfully
You wrote "I think Bandini will stand for $20,000........."
Pete...it won't surprise me to see it higher. Consider this...I expect the Ashford/Coolmore rationale might be that Claiborne's Strong Hope is a G2 winner and is by an Ashford stallion (Grand Slam) that stands for $85,000...
...whereas Bandini is a G1 winner and is by an Ashford stallion (Fusaichi Pegasus) that stands for $150,000.
Can I justify it...NO...but can I understand the case to be made...YES...therefore I can rationalize it...as I expect Ashford/Coolmore will also.
Best to you.
Respectfully
-
Coquinerie
- Maiden Special Weight
- Posts: 198
- Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2005 10:06 pm
- Location: Los Angeles
- Contact:
As the owner of young stakes fillies-- I like the pedigree on Bandini as a racing prospect. He has a family behind him that is as classy as it gets, and can produce very big sires. Do I think he should be 20k or higher at THIS point in his career? No. Would I pay 20k? I think I would if he fit the bill. He's a great looking horse who's first crop will probably be pretty damn commercial. So if I was selling the yearling, yeah.
Lion Heart has some real talent and in my opinion, had more oppurtunities (so far) to showcase that talent and had every reason to come into his own as a racehorse before Bandini did (has). A much more precocious pedigree.
Lion Heart has some real talent and in my opinion, had more oppurtunities (so far) to showcase that talent and had every reason to come into his own as a racehorse before Bandini did (has). A much more precocious pedigree.
Hi all,
LSB, you're absolutely right, thanks for the correction - Vindication stood for $50,000 in 2003.
FOS, I do see the logic that will allow Bandini to be priced higher than we (collectively) seem to feel he should. Supply and Demand.
Coquinerie, the 2004 crop was considered by many pundits to be a banner year for 3yo colts, but I'd tend to agree with you that the classics showed that most had regional or situational success. There were 2 stickouts though, Smarty Jones and Lion Heart.
Lion Heart competed against himself (or his pedigree). His 1:20.3 in the Hollywood Prevue Stakes was reminiscent of only Seattle Slew who also ran 1:20.3 (in his second start), a 7f allowance at Belmont Park (and I was there!
).
Lion Heart isn't Seattle Slew, but he was a brilliantly fast juvenile sprinter with heart and tenacity to be the second best colt in his crop at a distance.
I'm already on record saying that Lion Heart will be the leading freshman sire. I'm not a fan, just giving my opinion based on my experience.
Regards,
Pete
LSB, you're absolutely right, thanks for the correction - Vindication stood for $50,000 in 2003.
FOS, I do see the logic that will allow Bandini to be priced higher than we (collectively) seem to feel he should. Supply and Demand.
Coquinerie, the 2004 crop was considered by many pundits to be a banner year for 3yo colts, but I'd tend to agree with you that the classics showed that most had regional or situational success. There were 2 stickouts though, Smarty Jones and Lion Heart.
Lion Heart competed against himself (or his pedigree). His 1:20.3 in the Hollywood Prevue Stakes was reminiscent of only Seattle Slew who also ran 1:20.3 (in his second start), a 7f allowance at Belmont Park (and I was there!
).
Lion Heart isn't Seattle Slew, but he was a brilliantly fast juvenile sprinter with heart and tenacity to be the second best colt in his crop at a distance.
I'm already on record saying that Lion Heart will be the leading freshman sire. I'm not a fan, just giving my opinion based on my experience.
Regards,
Pete
hi Pete
You wrote "Lion Heart isn't Seattle Slew, but he was a brilliantly fast juvenile sprinter with heart and tenacity to be the second best colt in his crop at a distance."
I agree that Lion Heart was a "fast juvenile sprinter" as you described...but "at a distance" (unless what you meant was sprint distance) I would argue that Birdstone and Kitten's Joy (for starters) were both much classier guys than Lion Heart...I suggest that even Ruler's Court (who many have forgotten) was arguably a better 2-yo colt than Lion Heart. If you recall...Ruler's Court annihilated the field in the G2 Norfolk Stakes and set a new-stakes-record to boot.
Had Ruler's Court's connections allowed him to run in the Breeders' Cup (instead of opting to stop on him and send him to Dubai to prepare for his 3-yo campaign and the Ky Derby) Ruler's Court would have probably been installed as the favorite and very well might have won the BC Juvenile...and subsequently been crowned the 2-year-old champion.
Unfortunately though...the colt never made it to the classics (apparently due to an injury)...and his career has never gotten back on track.
Pete...I admire your willingness to go on record and write "I'm already on record saying that Lion Heart will be the leading freshman sire. I'm not a fan, just giving my opinion based on my experience."
You might be right...and I'd expect that he'll have a HUGE first crop (based on Ashford's track-record)...and that the quality of mares he is bred to will be (in general) VERY good (possibly an understatement).
I'll go on record though and say that I believe that Omega Code (by Elusive Quality) might very well be the sleeper. He stands for a mere $7,500 (vs Lion Heart at $30,000)...but I expect Omega Code has what it takes to be an exceptional sire...and seems to be getting the kind of support that few young stallions receive...anywhere.
Consider this...Omega Code is all but impossible to get a season to (it seems the "word" is out) and he's the first stallion I've seen in years (standing in Florida) who has attracted out-of-state mares.
Apparently his initial book will be in excess of 150 mares...and I am aware of many that are worthy of being bred to TOP sires. I mean young star-quality mares, many that are already producers (including stakes-producers) of merit and/or were race-horses (included graded) of consequence...WOW.
I suggest that Omega Code is a bargain (maybe a gift is a better description) at $7,500.
Do you think I like his chances ?
Best to you.
Respectfully
You wrote "Lion Heart isn't Seattle Slew, but he was a brilliantly fast juvenile sprinter with heart and tenacity to be the second best colt in his crop at a distance."
I agree that Lion Heart was a "fast juvenile sprinter" as you described...but "at a distance" (unless what you meant was sprint distance) I would argue that Birdstone and Kitten's Joy (for starters) were both much classier guys than Lion Heart...I suggest that even Ruler's Court (who many have forgotten) was arguably a better 2-yo colt than Lion Heart. If you recall...Ruler's Court annihilated the field in the G2 Norfolk Stakes and set a new-stakes-record to boot.
Had Ruler's Court's connections allowed him to run in the Breeders' Cup (instead of opting to stop on him and send him to Dubai to prepare for his 3-yo campaign and the Ky Derby) Ruler's Court would have probably been installed as the favorite and very well might have won the BC Juvenile...and subsequently been crowned the 2-year-old champion.
Unfortunately though...the colt never made it to the classics (apparently due to an injury)...and his career has never gotten back on track.
Pete...I admire your willingness to go on record and write "I'm already on record saying that Lion Heart will be the leading freshman sire. I'm not a fan, just giving my opinion based on my experience."
You might be right...and I'd expect that he'll have a HUGE first crop (based on Ashford's track-record)...and that the quality of mares he is bred to will be (in general) VERY good (possibly an understatement).
I'll go on record though and say that I believe that Omega Code (by Elusive Quality) might very well be the sleeper. He stands for a mere $7,500 (vs Lion Heart at $30,000)...but I expect Omega Code has what it takes to be an exceptional sire...and seems to be getting the kind of support that few young stallions receive...anywhere.
Consider this...Omega Code is all but impossible to get a season to (it seems the "word" is out) and he's the first stallion I've seen in years (standing in Florida) who has attracted out-of-state mares.
Apparently his initial book will be in excess of 150 mares...and I am aware of many that are worthy of being bred to TOP sires. I mean young star-quality mares, many that are already producers (including stakes-producers) of merit and/or were race-horses (included graded) of consequence...WOW.
I suggest that Omega Code is a bargain (maybe a gift is a better description) at $7,500.
Do you think I like his chances ?
Best to you.
Respectfully