Leading Freshman Sire of 2008...in North America

Discussion and analysis of thoroughbred stallions.

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Pete
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Postby Pete » Sun May 29, 2005 7:22 am

Toccet
Will you be breeding to the multiple G1 winning 2yo or the mediocre stakes horse he was at 3 and 4?

Will the much publicized 'remodelling' of his ankle affect his sales prices? (will buyers shy away from a horse whose conformation was changing at the end of his 2yo year).

Had Toccet retired as a 2yo near champion I believe he would have been a popular stallion at $25,000. His weaker performances at 3 and 4 certainly hurt his value at stud.

Awesome Again's fee and reputation are based on his top three, the wonderful Ghostzapper and 2yo G1 winners Toccet and Wilko. Remove these three and Awesome Again is underwhelming. His AEI would be nearly be cut in half (to about 1.58 aei), his percentage of winners at @33% and his percentage of SWs just 2.4% (it's only 3.9% with these 3). Awesome Again's sales prices reflect these inconsistencies and at a fee of $125,000, he's standing for a lot more than his foals have averaged at sale. Adena Springs is able to keep their stallion fees artificially high because they'll fill their own stallions books as needed.

Toccet's pedigree is weak commercially. I personally like some of the balance in it, but it's not going to inspire buyers.

I always preach knowing what you want to use a specific stallion for. I think Toccet will average about $45,000 for his foals, especially if Ghostzapper continues to be a dominant older horse and Awesome Again gets another nice colt. If they don't perform, I can see his average in the low $30,000 range.

If you're breeding to sell, I feel that there are better choices in this price range that offer more commercial pop. If his first foals look exceptional, he might be a choice in his 2nd year - especially if he got a large, quality book that might work for you.

If you're breeding to race, Awesome Again has been far to hit and miss, with a very low percentage of winners to make Toccet appealing. Far better choices here.

Read The Footnotes
Smoke Glacken is hitting on all cylinders and he's outperforming his own sire, Two Punch. His percentages of winners is very high, SWs solid and his sales prices have moved up sharply. He has gained commercial appeal and all this off an ordinary book. I believe the best is yet to come for him.

When a colt has had a shorter career, I like to see that a high percentage of wins from starts, (like Montbrook - I underbid 2 shares on him in 1995 :cry: ). Reat The Footnotes won 5 of 8 starts and showed solid forward development through his 2yo campaign into his 3yo with wins in maiden then allowance company followed by his Nashua S (G3) win and then the Remsen S (G2). He sprinted and then routed with success. His opponents weren't the best, but he was consistently better than them (Artie Schiller on dirt isn't the same horse as he is on turf).

Read The Footnotes sold for $320,000 as a 2yo, best of Smoke Glacken's 17 sold. I don't know him physically and can't comment past the solid sales price, but both Two Punch and now Smoke Glacken consistently get nice individuals with substance and bone and I'd expect similar from Read The Footnotes.

Read The Footnotes has an unusual pedigree, not particularly compelling in his first 2 dams, and far more turf than dirt in orientation. His deeper family is solid, but again with more success on the grass. Al Nasr as a broodmare sire doesn't inspire, but he holds that position for Tomorrow's Cat and Honour And Glory. On the other hand, Magesterial was though to be a huge liability for Smoke Glacken.

Someone mentioned that Stravinsky is from the same female as Read The Footnotes. True, but he's under the 3rd dam, and other than his initial success with 2yo winners, he hasn't gotten top quality horses. Smoke Glacken is already a superior sire to Stravinsky.

Being inbred 3x4 to Mr. Prospector could be some concern, but it's a top/bottom line tie and I like this aspectation much more than inbreeding Mr. P this close on sire lines.

Smoke Glacken has been outstanding sire of 2yos with 27% winners. Read The Footnotes has a nearly identical 2yo record as his sire, though he was far more versitile in distance. Standing in Florida is an environmental advantage.

I'm splitting hairs if I said that I'd rather he had stood at $7,500, but I do like him. He will ride his sire's coat tails and I believe Smoke Glacken will be a $50,000 sire before long. If his get have the substance and structure that his sire line is noted for I think he will sell (reasonably) well, perhaps averaging $35,000 or more based on Smoke Glacken's continued success.

I've projected Read The Footnotes as a better choice (commercially) as a 2nd and 3rd year stallion. I WANT to play the bubble on this guy (that's why the fee is an issue for me). If I can get clients to him in years 2 and 3 at @$6,000, I will recommend him. With a solid race record (especially at but not limited to his 2yo year), the improvement in his sire line (Glacken being better than Two Punch) and the Florida advantge I believe he will get a substantial percentage of 2yo runners and winners. I can easily see his 3rd crop averaging $50,000. I will look for his first crop as an indication of potential success.

If you're breeding to race, Read The Footnotes is an acceptable choice, but I'd like him better in his 2nd, 3rd and 4th years at stud.

Regards,

Pete

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Pete
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Postby Pete » Sun Jun 05, 2005 6:39 pm

Hi FOS,

Sorry for the dealy in getting back to you.

I think you're missing the point, there is no comparison between Omega Code and Lion Heart at this time. Perhaps in the future there will be.

I accept that Lion Heart doesn't meet your criteria for a new stallion prospect @$30,000. Omega Code doesn't meet mine for a $5,000 stallion but I hope that you're not suggesting that Lion Heart's stud fee should be less than or equal to Omega Code or that Omega Code is worth more to breeders than Lion Heart regardless of price?

I heard the words I thought I'd never hear from Ashford Stud when inquiring about Lion Heart in January, "His book is full". Recently I tried again hoping for an opening, but there are none. Without question as you correctly point out, Lion Heart will get a lot of help in size of book and marketing from Ashford, perhaps quality too. As of this writing I value him as a stallion that I believe will boast a yearling average of $125,000 or more and that would make, on average, my clients profitable breeding to him. I advise the use of stallions when and if they present a compelling possibility of profit. Make any case you like about Lion Heart and you will not stop him from being highly profitable when his first yearlings sell.

We're in total agreement about sons of Storm Cat. They have been particularly mediocre as a group and as a group over priced. Despite our agreement about Storm Cat sons, I think you'd agree that they have had a surprisingly good shelf life in commercial appeal (again as a group).

We don't agree on the respective pedigrees of Omega Code and Lion Heart. If you're considering the 5th and 6th dam (Grey Flight) I can only see that as a stretch. You need to go back 5 generations in Omega Code to find a performer of Lion Heart's ability. If you like Exceller (lord love him - he was a wonderful runner) in the pedigree of your stallions, I don't. I can live with Mr. Leader as evidenced by Distorted Humor in Lion Heart.

You didn't address my question about the utterly awful competition that Omega Code ran against in the Jessman? I can get to Desert Warrior for $3,000 with a sexier pedigree (and similar race record) and I know that despite only being a nice allowance level horse, he defeated Omega Code. Omega Code's G3 win gives him some credentials, but the field was short (5) and at the time (Bossanova improved later in the year) really a listed stakes quality. I'm no fan of Beyers, but I'd doubt his number for the Jessman or San Miguel was very high - perhaps high 90's (anyone know?), despite the fast times. Omega Code ran two fast times on exceptionally fast tracks, without a lot of class or versitility and was a very beatable horse even for low caliber stakes company. Utah (no offense to Utah) and other states get these type of horses every year to fill their stallion rosters.

We have no idea if Elusive Quality will be a better sire of sires that Tale Of The Cat. Both unknown and thus we can only conjecture at this time.

I DID make the comparison of Omega Code to Scrimshaw and the latter presents more compelling value than Omega Code in every respect and he's by a sire (Gulch) that has sired a commercially successful son in Thunder Gulch. He was every bit as fast at 2, against better company and was more versitile and successful as a 3yo.

If you don't like Lion Heart, I respect that, and I have enough respect for you to have evaluated Omega Code and I don't like him, especially at$7,500. I can see breeding to him if you expect him to be fast out of the box with his first runners, but at his fee he's a stretch and you'd do just as well having his second or third crop. I prefer other sons of Elusive Quality like Gimmeawink ($4,000, defeated Toccet and Dynever) and Great Notion ($3,500 G1 placed ahead of Ghostzapper), to name just two.

It's entirely possible that Omega Code will become an accomplished sire, but if this comes to pass his value to commercial breeders will increase in the next few years so that you're selling into his success. I would be surprised it Omega Code is anything more than the sire of some winners and will pay you kudos at that time, but for me he is one of the least compelling stallion choices available.

Respectfully and with regards,

Pete

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FOS
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Postby FOS » Mon Jun 06, 2005 2:47 am

hi Pete

You wrote "I think you're missing the point, there is no comparison between Omega Code and Lion Heart at this time."

Certainly there is...for the reasons I touched on.

Regardless...the question was "Who's your choice for North America's Leading Freshman Sire of 2008 (meaning...stallions whose first year at stud is 2005)." You selected Lion Heart.

You seem to be overly generous (from my point of view anyway) in your accolades for Lion Heart as a racehorse. He won 5 races...ahead of some second and third place finishers of arguably highly questionable quality...and I am confident you are aware of that.

1/ Lion Heart won a Maiden Special Weight going 6f in 1:09 1/5 at Santa Anita

2/ He also won the Hollywood Futurity G1...versus arguably one of the worst (if not the worst) field in Futurity history. Second place finisher was St Averil (although he won the Santa Catalina...isn't he still eligible for NonWinners of 3 other than) and what about 3rd place finisher in the Futurity, That's An Outrage...has he done any more than break his maiden in 13 tries?

3/ Lion Heart won the Hollywood Prevue over 2nd place finisher Cooperation...who was not and still is not a stakes winner...and has won but 2 of 9 lifetime starts. Oh yes...and the 3rd place finisher was Voladero...has he done anymore than break his maiden in 10 tries?

4/ Lion Heart barely won the Long Branch Breeders Cup H over $50k claimer My Snookie's Boy...whose claim to fame is that he finished 2nd twice to Lion Heart in the Long Branch and in the...

5/ Haskell...where Lion Heart proved once again that he was better than a $50k claimer.

Regardless...Lion Heart was a nice racehorse...and some of the horses that finished up the track behind him have turned out to be nice (or better) but I suggest that All Things Considered...to paint him as something very special is a strrrretttch.

Your attempt to diminish the brilliance of Omega Code surprises me...and as far as I'm concerned that's an exercise that's totally without merit. Are there other two-year olds that have won officially recognized 6 furlong races on the dirt that were officially clocked doing it in 1:07.70 or faster...at licensed, legit, for real racetrack(s) with teletimer equipment...EVER? No smoke and mirrors...legit.

Certainly Lion Heart NEVER did that...nor did he ever win in 1:08 3/5...as we know that Omega Code did in a G3 (on the dirt) at Santa Anita at age three.

Respectfully...I suggest that Omega Code has ALL the ingredients (including the looks and the pedigree) to be the Leading Freshman Sire of 2008...and a Top sire.

As for Scrimshaw...who you compare to Omega Code...he would be of NO interest to me whatsoever. I sense he might be destined for nowhere (before he's destined for somewhere) with a first dam by Sham and a second dam by First Dawn...Ouch. Furthermore...I could NEVER consider a stallion prospect in whose pedigree the name Future Storm is on display...HORRIBLE.

You mention Gimmeawink...respectfully Pete...for starters...if I wanted to breed to a horse that could win going 6f in 1:11 and change...and win stakes at Philadelphia, Mountaineer and the likes...he'd be on my list...but you know what will freeze over before I consider that kind of horse?

I suggest that the upside with Omega Code is potentially huge...and that in a supply and demand market...Omega Code is in VERY STRONG demand...and rightfully so.

Pedigree-wise I'll take him over Lion Heart without any second thoughts whatsoever. If we were playing Texas Hold'em I'd be ALL IN.

You can take Lion Heart's dam by Mr Leader and out of a Naskra...please do...

...but I'll take Omega Code's dam by Deputy Minister out of arguably the best daughter EVER of Exceller (near $900k earner and multiple graded stakes-winner and mutiple new-track-record-setter Squan Song)...who by the way is out of a Damascus daughter that is out of a Bold Ruler (full sister to a bevy of top-class horses including 2-yo champions Successor and Bold Lad)...and yes from the family of Grey Flight and Leading Sire What a Pleasure.

That being said...it seems clear that racetrack performance plays the Primary role in your selection process (please correct me if that's wrong). Performance certainly plays a role in my evaluation process also...but I've apparently gauged my bar (and/or parameters) differently than you've gauged yours.

I look forward to the continuing exchange of ideas...opinions...etc even when spirited.

Best to you.

Respectfully

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Pete
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Postby Pete » Mon Jun 06, 2005 10:24 pm

Hi FOS,

You're living up to your handle and I don't have my hip waders :)

It's not about Omega Code vs. Lion Heart, it's selecting the leading freshman sire in 2008. Nothing said now will make it happen any sooner.

We have vastly different criteria that we use in evaluating stallions. I accept that you don't like Lion Heart and you need to accept that I don't like Omega Code.

Regards,

Pete

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FOS
Freshman Sire
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Postby FOS » Tue Jun 07, 2005 10:59 am

hi Pete

To what extent does the physical and pedigree come into play in your stallion evaluations?

What is your critique of Lion Heart?

Best to you.

Respectfully