Stallion walking videos on thoroughbredtimes.com

[Rokeby Forever]

Are there some farms suing for having these videos shown? LOL!

[bcassidy]

Of course conformation is important but one thing I didn't understand until I met Cecil Seaman is the concept of "center of gravity---COG). Cecil is a bio mechanical expert and believes in his craft tremendously. Cecil explained to me how some conformation faults can actually be acceptable if the horse has a good COG. This explains why some horses can race extremely well with (what some people consider serious faults) and others can't. If the COG is very good, the animal doesn't put the pressure on these faults that other poorly balanced animals does, hence one will stay sound while the other will not. Of course we are all trying to breed the animal with the best conformation possible.

[Mahubah]

mahubah,

You are hinting about an entry to breeding........very interesting. I would think your reputation as a pedigree analyst would have money folks looking at any progeny you put together. Seems natural for you enter this segment of the business.

If you dont mind sharing, what kind of plans are going through your mind?

Thanks

I'm a long way off from realizing this dream, but my ideal would be to put together a small to medium-sized farm with a nice band of mares. I'm a firm believer in the idea that it's better to buy a few good mares than many bad ones for the same money, considering that it costs just as much to feed and care for a bad animal as a good one. Eventually being in a position to have a band of 20-25 nice mares would be very pleasant indeed. I'd probably be looking at retaining the best fillies for myself while selling the males -- could always try to retain an interest if one looked really good. Maintaining a numbers ceiling on the broodie band would force me to cull regularly, which would also be a good thing even though something good might occasionally get away.

My idea of a good mare? Well, let's face it, I'm never likely to have the kind of money that would let me buy the "obvious" good mare, a Graded winner with fine conformation from an excellent family. But I would like to get mares that have a fair balance of race record, conformation, and pedigree -- my choice might be a good allowance filly or minor stakes winner with at least 14-15 starts on her record, well balanced with no major conformation flaws (train wrecks not terribly likely anyway if the mare showed some ability and was sound enough to last a little while). Pedigree wouldn't have to be flashy but I would like to see some racing ability in her dam or else a good produce record by the dam with a fair number of solid winners above the bottom-level claimer variety -- preferably both. I'm not really interested in pure sprinter types and would prefer to see mares that could get at least 7-8 furlongs themselves -- if they could go further, so much the better. I'd be looking mostly at maiden mares or mares pregnant with their first foals.

An example of the kind of mare I might take a look at would be Molly's Pride, recent winner of the Dr. O. G. Fischer Memorial Stakes (a $50,000 race at Sunray Park). If she went up for sale right now, she would be a four-year-old maiden mare with four wins and five placings from fourteen starts, which is decent consistency and suggests that she probably doesn't have major physical or mental issues and has been consistently placed in appropriate company for her ability level. She was a $190,000 purchase as a 2yo in training, so it's reasonable to assume that she's decently put together. She is a half sister to a G3 winner. The second and third dams are both minor stakes winners and made 14 and 19 starts, respectively, and the female line seems to produce acceptable soundness levels by modern standards to judge both by the number of winners from foals it is throwing and the number of starts those winners are making. I don't see anything in the produce records of Molly's Pride's close relatives to suggest that hereditary infertility is likely to be a problem. And she has a couple of half sisters that are well enough bred to get opportunities with decent stallions, which may give her a value boost in the future if one of them comes up with a good runner. The overall pedigree isn't top-rate by any means, but it's reasonably solid. Now, would I actually buy her if she were available? Don't know, but on race record and pedigree she would at least be worth a look. This mare could fit fairly well into a program wanting flexibility between breeding to race and breeding to sell.

As far as actually planning matings goes, I'd want someone with more expertise on conformation than I have to help me out on evaluating prospective matings from a physical standpoint -- pretty matchups on paper aren't worth much if the stallion and mare are incompatible in type or, equally bad, reinforce each other's flaws. (I'm not looking for show-ring perfection, but you do want to produce a foal well enough put together to actually get out of its own way!) Ideally, a good mating would look solid from both the conformational and pedigree points of view. Proven sires would be preferred, and ability to throw runners consistently preferred over flashy sales numbers. The target would be animals capable of competing in the 8-10 furlong range at age three and up, which is where the biggest money is concentrated in American racing.

Then, of course, you have to plan a good program for raising and training your youngsters (and doubtless hire quality help to do it) so that they can develop the full of the potential that's in them while remaining healthy and happy. Nutrition, foot care, vaccination programs, shelter, minimal exposure to respiratory irritants, exercise....But that's another story in itself.

Ok, so I'm dreaming. But it's a pleasant dream.

[Tiz]

I see what appears to be creative farrier work on a few of the ones you've mentioned. Candy Ride and Rock Hard Ten, specifically.
Who was it that said that Buddha was "windswept"? I paused at that claim, wondering if it was possible for a horse with that condition to make it to the races at all. His walking video confirms that no one here knows what windswept is.
Roke, your comments appear to be more based in your prejudices, then on honest observation. I didn't think Buddha walked as you described at all.
And Michael, seeing the problems these upper level horses have does offer encouragement of sorts, doesn't it? I've been very disappointed to see faults not nearly as pronounced in our youngsters. As an old timer once said to me, "We ran "em all."

[CA Michael]

Tiz, I've found that if enough time and patience is given to horses with leg abnormalities, especially back at the knee, offset knees, tied in cannon bones, and light bone, they will often overcome these defects to a large degree. Those horses bred for sturdiness, even with these types of defects, are still more likely to enjoy long racing careers. What does in so many of these types of animals are connections that can't wait for that starting gate to open. Pedigrees are like blueprints, but even blueprints are worthless unless the builder follows them.

[habitat]

Mahubah,

on paper your plan is well thought out and your end goal has me daydreaming a little this morning myself.

You've made many really good statements, but the one where you find some expertise with conformation is good business. There is a lot of information available to today's breeders regarding pedigrees, there are some good horsemen and women that can be found, and food and supplements are better than ever, but finding the right conformation skill set is in short supply.

Bloodhorse has an older 3 part article on yearling conformation and while there is some agreement within the particpants comments, there are also differences. Finding a balance between your own opinions and the expertise hired adds another degree of difficulty.

Thanks for sharing.

[geowarrior]

I forget if I read this little vignette in Laura Hillenbrand's book or somewhere else (my gut says somewhere else). But it goes something like this:

Bystander to Tom Smith on seeing Seabiscuit walk by (walk not impressive), "That horse of yours can't walk worth a damn."

Smith, "Runs, though."

[pokeyman]

I forget if I read this little vignette in Laura Hillenbrand's book or somewhere else (my gut says somewhere else). But it goes something like this:

Bystander to Tom Smith on seeing Seabiscuit walk by (walk not impressive), "That horse of yours can't walk worth a damn."

Smith, "Runs, though."

[madelyn]

Who was it that had been told one of his horses walked lame, said "well he sure can limp real fast"?

[CA Michael]

geowarrior,

Hillenbrand's book, as well as the movie, overflowed with historical inaccuracies and literary license (also known as B.S.) From the first chapter to the final movie credits I lost count of the blatant misstatements of fact. The story is good for the horse business, but as an educational tool, it's bogus.

[Rick]

[quote="madelyn"]Who was it that had been told one of his horses walked lame, said "well he sure can limp real fast"?[/quote]

The story I heard was that somone was commenting to Bob Baffert about Mr Prospector offspring before the Keeneland sale asying that they all limped and Baffert responded with the above quote.

[geowarrior]

geowarrior,

Hillenbrand's book, as well as the movie, overflowed with historical inaccuracies and literary license (also known as B.S.) From the first chapter to the final movie credits I lost count of the blatant misstatements of fact. The story is good for the horse business, but as an educational tool, it's bogus.

Well, as I said, I don't think that's where I read that particular story. In any case, I'd be interested to hear some of the misstatements of fact.

[CA Michael]

geo,

I haven't picked up the book since I first read it, and have only seen the movie twice. Thus, the specifics are vague. However, I do trust my memory of my reaction at the time. I do know that both book and movie portrayed Seabiscuit as a cheap claimer running at Suffolk, or the like, at the point of purchase by the Howards. In reality, Seabiscuit had just won a 9 furlong handicap at Saratoga when the Howards bought him; his last start in a claimer came 37 starts earlier. Seabiscuit had won several small stakes for his previous owner (Mrs. Phipps). Hardly the story Hildenbrand wanted us to believe. She created many other dances with the facts.

[halo]

Apparently those arent the facts either. According to American Race Horses of 1937:

His first outing at The Spa was in the Mohawk Claiming Stakes, one mile, which he won from Ann O'Ruley and five others, carrying 109 lbs. to finish off by himself, six lengths ahead, in 1:38 2/5. He had been entered to be claimed for $6,000, but was not wanted by any "halter-man" at that price. A week later he had only one opponent for a $1,200 Graded Handicap and won it going away, 9 furlongs in 1:54 with 112 lbs.

One of the ancient maxims of successful horse-salesman-ship is that which tell us:"The time to sell is when somebody wants to buy". The owners of Seabiscuit had been anxious to dispose of him for some time, and Trainer Fitzsimmons while not anxious was willing. As observed, they had been content to let him go for $6,000 had there been a buyer that day.

But when so soon after, he won his second race in two starts at Saratoga, a buyer appeared in the person of Charles S. Howard, who is a power in General Motors in the Far West, breeds a few horses, and races in the name of his wife. He was looking for something of moderate price that would be useful the next winter in California and that might also be worth staking. His attention was attracted by the little son of Hard Tack, and the result was that he bought the colt at private treaty. The price was about $7,500.

Written by John Hervey.

[CA Michael]

Well, I'm looking at Seabiscuit's lifetime Past Performances and it shows that he raced in a succession of three dozen stakes and handicaps after his last foray into the claiming ranks as an early two year old (he had already started 10 times before that race on April 25)! The claiming handicaps of those days were much like today's optional claiming races--some are entered to be claimed, some aren't. The writer saw the $6k figure and assumed it was the claiming price' it wasn't it was the purse at Saratoga.

After the Howards bought Seabiscuit's around August 10, they next started him 12 days later in Detroit. This was a stakes race in which he ran 4th. Following a second in his next start, an allowance race, Seabiscuit ran almost exclusively in stakes. I don't know when and where those photogenic romps in the county took place---when trainer Tom Smith supposedly said to the Howards "Just let him be a horse" before Red Pollard galloped him through the meadows. Unless Smith took a fast route from Saratoga on Aug. 11 to Detroit, there wasn't much time for Hildenbrand's colorful anecdote to occur. I'm betting it didn't.