KAL, very well said. You're probably right that many will interpret the article in the way you did.
Also wanted to commend you for keeping our debate 'above the belt'. Seems like when it comes to bloodstock topics, people tend to personalize things way too much, which often shifts the debate from factual to personal. I admire and respect your approach.
Giant's Causeway stud fee boost
Moderators: Roguelet, WaveMaster, madelyn
KAL wrote:My primary point, in this regard, was to pretty much "call out" those who so adamantly denigated FuPeg and Giant's Causeway. Those extremely vocal posters have grown amazingly quiet now that both are exceeding any normal expectations.
Oh, I'm still here KAL
I was never as down on GC as I was on FUPeg though .. I was hoping he would breed closer to the Rahy in his family and thought very early he would be Storm Cat's Heir Apparent. His numbers are just as bad as FUPeg's, but I've a little more faith in him because of that Rahy.
FUPeg is another matter. It's not that I don't think he can get a good horse, it's that he can't seem to get a good SOUND horse that stays in form for more than 3 races. Yeah, he's had some decent ones ... How many of them are still around? Bandini and Andromeda's Hero are the only one in the race and AH is still a 3rd stringer AFAIC with no hope of actually winning. The other "name" FUPegs have all fallen to the wayside .. Killanue, Roman Ruler, Fusaichi Samurai.
Fact of the matter is, FUPeg has more mediocre/bad ones than good ones and the good ones (especially if they are carrying an additional line of Mr. P.) have an EXTREMELY narrow window of ability.
FUPeg is breeding to type .. All hype, no substance and fragile as hell and it takes a patient trainer to keep them together long enough to be useful (and even that isn't a guarantee to success -- You don't get much more patient than Drysdale and FuSam still went down). Hmm, sounds just like their dad.
Additionally, people only remember the good ones .. and never hear about/forget the rest. FUPeg's numbers just aren't there, even as a second crop sire. Yeah, he's got a handful of good horses making a lot of money, BUT overall they are lacking. 294 horses of racing age and only 83 starters. Granted he's got 200 2yos, but about 100 of those are running RIGHT now because they are Aussies and are about 3 months shy of being 'officially' 3yos. I can be generous and discount 100 of those 294 horses of racing age .. that still leaves 194 horses and only 83 starters = 43%. Pathetic. Of those 83, he's only got 36 winners = 19% of foals and 43% of starters .. pretty damn sad in my eyes. He's got a 4.02 CI and a 2.07 AEI ... again, even as a second crop sire, that's horrid. Even his 'big horses' aren't helping him.
I think FUPEG is very comparable to Unbridled's Song. Both get flashy looking, big foals that sell well. Both have the ability to get the big horse, and both were fragile racehorses that are going to beget more fragile racehorses unless you breed them to mares of steel which they won't see because they'll be seeing "Superstar's half sister by Storm Cat who never started but looked very fast". FUPEG will do what he does well just as Unbridled's Song does and the key is to analyze if that is good enough for you. Are you willing to flush $150,000 plus expenses down the toilet if you get one of the ones that can't make it to the track just to have a shot at "the big one"?
KAL wrote:Sam, please excuse, but I cannot resist...
Q: How are FuPeg and the Yankees different?
A: FuPeg had a winning April and is leading his division.
double blink
Did you just stick your ass in the air and ask me to beat it?
Please ... they had a shit April/May last year, too (hell, when I went to the Yanks/Angels game last year, my boys were still hitting under the price of gas -- .200) ... They still won their division.
I'm blaming Butt Selig and his "lets have all the major rivalries meet each other 6 times in their first 9 games as a ratings ploy" stunt. Red Sox and Giants are still trying to dig out of the hole that caused them, too. Seems the only person on the planet who can rival Lord Shrub for stupid moves is Selig. The only thing this crap did is give teams like Baltimore a chance to open up a little room.
waits for Lucy to slip in her RedSox post
In the mean time, I will be wearing my Yankees jersey and Bellamy Road hat proudly next Saturday. flicks thumbnail off front teeth
Okay I have to say it. The only thing wrong with the Yankees is the A-rod curse. Step right up folks and pay $25.2 million per year for the player destined to make your team a playoff non-contender. As a Rangers fan, nothing was more satisfying than watching Jason Varitek whup him like a little girl last year and I hate the Red Sox and that little dog Schilling too.
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kimberley mine
- Breeder's Cup Contender
- Posts: 1811
- Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 8:43 pm
Maid's Causeway's dam in an unraced daughter of Kingmambo (out of a daughter of Nureyev), and is from the immediate family of a French Highweight and group-2 winner. This family is not the most consistent, with many unraced horses, but is producing very well.
Footstepsinthesand's family has a stakes winner at every other turn, including a highweight juvenile, a Gr-3 winner, and 2 listed winners in his immediate family up to the 2nd dam.
Sharmadal's family is another one with stakes winners every other turn, including Street Cry, a Gr-3 winner, a listed winner, and an Irish Oaks winner.
Noble Causeway's family has flattened out a bit in the last few years, but has a Gr-1 winner as his 2nd dam and some other nice horses in there.
Listed stakes winner Aischa's dam is a half-sister to Gr-1 Labeeb, 2 Gr-2 winners, and a listed winner.
With mares like this, it's no surprise that Giant's Causeway has some big stakes winners early in his career. So with that in mind, I'd rather hold off judgement on whether he is the Next Coming until more of them run, and mares of a more plebian background start producing big winners.
Footstepsinthesand's family has a stakes winner at every other turn, including a highweight juvenile, a Gr-3 winner, and 2 listed winners in his immediate family up to the 2nd dam.
Sharmadal's family is another one with stakes winners every other turn, including Street Cry, a Gr-3 winner, a listed winner, and an Irish Oaks winner.
Noble Causeway's family has flattened out a bit in the last few years, but has a Gr-1 winner as his 2nd dam and some other nice horses in there.
Listed stakes winner Aischa's dam is a half-sister to Gr-1 Labeeb, 2 Gr-2 winners, and a listed winner.
With mares like this, it's no surprise that Giant's Causeway has some big stakes winners early in his career. So with that in mind, I'd rather hold off judgement on whether he is the Next Coming until more of them run, and mares of a more plebian background start producing big winners.
Giant
I just think that Giant causeway will apply most to european, breeders and
racers. Benefitting from the fact that GC was a very good racehorse by
himself on the euro scene. The type of racing suits a number of his offspring very well. And there seems to be a number of euro broodmares
as well for supporting him. And with the age rising of saddlers wells, he is
given a lot of opportunities from his shareholders.
Ben. ( It ain,t quarantee any form of succes in the future, but it helps a lot)
racers. Benefitting from the fact that GC was a very good racehorse by
himself on the euro scene. The type of racing suits a number of his offspring very well. And there seems to be a number of euro broodmares
as well for supporting him. And with the age rising of saddlers wells, he is
given a lot of opportunities from his shareholders.
Ben. ( It ain,t quarantee any form of succes in the future, but it helps a lot)
Giant's Causeway had two additional impressive winners today in England in Aragorn (from a Mr. Prospector mare) and Walkonthewildside. With the flat season starting to pick up steam, it will be interesting to see if he can keep this up.
KAL, I think you asked if his American-bred crops were being sent to Europe in significant numbers. Looking over his crop of two year olds, this does appear to be the case, because at first glance, at least 1/3 of his crop seem to have European connections. He has a full twenty two year olds with early entries in the 2006 Epsom Derby. Both Godolphin and Coolmore have quite a few Giant's Causeway two year olds in their barns. It will be interesting to watch the sales this year to see where his yearlings end up.
KAL, I think you asked if his American-bred crops were being sent to Europe in significant numbers. Looking over his crop of two year olds, this does appear to be the case, because at first glance, at least 1/3 of his crop seem to have European connections. He has a full twenty two year olds with early entries in the 2006 Epsom Derby. Both Godolphin and Coolmore have quite a few Giant's Causeway two year olds in their barns. It will be interesting to watch the sales this year to see where his yearlings end up.
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Galileo1998
- Yearling
- Posts: 58
- Joined: Sat Apr 30, 2005 7:26 am
Another one
Another classic winner from the first crop of Giant's Causeway 
Shamardal, owned by Godolphin and by Giant's Causeway out of a full sister to Street Cry just won the French 2000 Guineas
Shamardal, owned by Godolphin and by Giant's Causeway out of a full sister to Street Cry just won the French 2000 Guineas
Giant's Causeway
Just like I mentioned before, GC's like the Europe scene more!
He seems good enough to return to Ireland.
He seems good enough to return to Ireland.
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erins isle
- Grade III Winner
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- Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2004 6:26 am
- Location: The basement of Europe
Giant's Causeway
In Europe on turf he is just a hell of a stallion, with the English 2000 Guineas, a second in the 1000 and now the French 2000 Guineas. Has there ever been a stallion to achieve this in one season? Just name him.
Last edited by erins isle on Tue Feb 28, 2006 2:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
hi Ruffian ... hi BenB ...hi erins isle
I suggest you're all on target.
BenB...I agree with your comment "...GC's like the Europe scene more!" And if I may add...I suggest that his North American runners also seem to prefer (to an extreme degree...so far) the turf-scene vs dirt.
erins isle...you wrote "In Europe on turf he is just a hell of a stallion..." It's difficult to argue with that (at least right now).
Ruffian...John Magnier may very well be "thanking his lucky stars" as you suggest. I'd describe him as a VERY bright guy...and certainly Giant's Causeway has become a valuable asset. But as GC relates to the North American market and North American racing on DIRT surfaces...regardless of the constant barrage of advertising...marketing...spin...hype...etc (at least as seen in North America's thoroughbred undustry publications...online etc) which some (in the thoroughbred industry) believe Coolmore is the best in the world at...I suggest that Giant's Causeway himself is telling us that he probably belongs back at Fethard, County Tipperary, Ireland.
Notwithstanding...I can understand (and might be inclined to agree) that it's arguably wise to continue to stand him at Ashford (Versailles, KY) for at least another year or two in hopes that he'll come up with a reasonable number of TOP graded stakes-winners (including Grade 1 winners of course) on the DIRT. If he pulls that off, his appeal to North American breeders that are disappointed and/or unconvinced etc, might improve (or be resurrected).
It's probably fair to say that GC will always be welcome back at Coolmore, Ireland...and it's probably a reasonably safe bet that when Sadler's Wells' days in the breeding shed are over...GC might return to Coolmore to fill a probable void. Those same breeders that support SW will probably be there to support GC (as long as he continues to get top turf types) although arguably his percentages right now are not impressive. I suggest that filling Sadler's Wells' and/or Danehill's (one of my favorites) shoes is a tall order.
And regardless of GC's numbers...stats...accomplishments (or lack therof)...I suggest he brings very little to the table PHYSICALLY...if dirt is the intended destination. I suggest that as a physical type...it's probably fair to say that GC leans more in the direction of being a lightly-made type vs a powerhouse-type...although arguably GC's a nicely balanced horse that was certainly a great racehorse.
ALL THINGS CONSIDERED...and putting EVERYTHING into perspective...including (but not limited to) his HUGE first crop of 137 named northern hemisphere foals out of arguably the most astounding, spectacular book of mares that any first year stallion has EVER received....I suggest that (based on what he has done as a sire thus far) he is absolutely a dangerous stallion for North American commercial breeders to use at $200,000 (right now).
Good luck to all of his connections...and fair warning to all prospective breeders. I suggest, stand back...evaluate Everything thoroughly and honestly...and don't fall prey to the cheerleaders (that either have nothing at stake & little or no experience to draw from...or conversely, are connected to the horse and do have something at stake). It might become clear (if it has not already), and you might agree that Giant's Causeway at $200,000 (for North American commercial breeders anyway) is nothing short of...VERY HIGH RISK !!!
Respectfully
I suggest you're all on target.
BenB...I agree with your comment "...GC's like the Europe scene more!" And if I may add...I suggest that his North American runners also seem to prefer (to an extreme degree...so far) the turf-scene vs dirt.
erins isle...you wrote "In Europe on turf he is just a hell of a stallion..." It's difficult to argue with that (at least right now).
Ruffian...John Magnier may very well be "thanking his lucky stars" as you suggest. I'd describe him as a VERY bright guy...and certainly Giant's Causeway has become a valuable asset. But as GC relates to the North American market and North American racing on DIRT surfaces...regardless of the constant barrage of advertising...marketing...spin...hype...etc (at least as seen in North America's thoroughbred undustry publications...online etc) which some (in the thoroughbred industry) believe Coolmore is the best in the world at...I suggest that Giant's Causeway himself is telling us that he probably belongs back at Fethard, County Tipperary, Ireland.
Notwithstanding...I can understand (and might be inclined to agree) that it's arguably wise to continue to stand him at Ashford (Versailles, KY) for at least another year or two in hopes that he'll come up with a reasonable number of TOP graded stakes-winners (including Grade 1 winners of course) on the DIRT. If he pulls that off, his appeal to North American breeders that are disappointed and/or unconvinced etc, might improve (or be resurrected).
It's probably fair to say that GC will always be welcome back at Coolmore, Ireland...and it's probably a reasonably safe bet that when Sadler's Wells' days in the breeding shed are over...GC might return to Coolmore to fill a probable void. Those same breeders that support SW will probably be there to support GC (as long as he continues to get top turf types) although arguably his percentages right now are not impressive. I suggest that filling Sadler's Wells' and/or Danehill's (one of my favorites) shoes is a tall order.
And regardless of GC's numbers...stats...accomplishments (or lack therof)...I suggest he brings very little to the table PHYSICALLY...if dirt is the intended destination. I suggest that as a physical type...it's probably fair to say that GC leans more in the direction of being a lightly-made type vs a powerhouse-type...although arguably GC's a nicely balanced horse that was certainly a great racehorse.
ALL THINGS CONSIDERED...and putting EVERYTHING into perspective...including (but not limited to) his HUGE first crop of 137 named northern hemisphere foals out of arguably the most astounding, spectacular book of mares that any first year stallion has EVER received....I suggest that (based on what he has done as a sire thus far) he is absolutely a dangerous stallion for North American commercial breeders to use at $200,000 (right now).
Good luck to all of his connections...and fair warning to all prospective breeders. I suggest, stand back...evaluate Everything thoroughly and honestly...and don't fall prey to the cheerleaders (that either have nothing at stake & little or no experience to draw from...or conversely, are connected to the horse and do have something at stake). It might become clear (if it has not already), and you might agree that Giant's Causeway at $200,000 (for North American commercial breeders anyway) is nothing short of...VERY HIGH RISK !!!
Respectfully