Awful stallion Giant's Causeway ...

[Sysonby]

Then it's correct that Giant's Causeway's ONLY Grade 1 dirt winner is First Samurai when Sysonby writes, "And here I thought breeders were patronizing GC because of his Grade 1/ Group 1 winners...."?

Even when you quote me you try to change what I said....I'm talking about Aragorn, Sharmandal, Footstepsinthesand, Maids Causeway and First Samurai. He also had 10 graded SWs in 2006-2007. By contrast, More Than Ready had 4 graded SWs in the same period and no North American Grade 1 stakes winners in 2006. In fact, More than Ready has never had a Grade 1 North American stakes winner on either surface.

Do I love Giant's Causeway? Not necessarily, but I do recognize that he's a success by most people's standards. If he doesn't meet your expectations, you always have the option of not breeding to him.

[Rokeby Forever]

Remember when syndicated stallions sold for 40 shares, and each share gave the owner one season? It was nice back then when there was mare selection and breeders cared about trying to breed a quality foal.

How many mares did Alydar get the year he was "bred to death" by Lundy? 90 or so? Today, a sire like that is a failure! LOL!

To answer Sysonby: the USA market does NOT spend $1 Million on a yearling hoping for a turf horse. That's what Giant's Causeway, by and large, sires. Once again...his niche is with Euro mares - keep him in Europe!

[Tappiano]

I'm quite sure that the private fee gives them the freedom of offering you one hell of a deal if you have the right mare. In fact, if they don't get any takers for 300K I bet he winds up in Europe.

[Ill-bred]

They're cutting deals for under 300k, for sure.

But I am also told they are being much pickier about his mares now, a wise move on Ashford's part if GC is to live up to his reputation/hype.

[Rokeby Forever]

What are you people saying....that at $300,000 a pop, Giant's Causeway was bred to backyard mares, and now that his fee is "private," he's suddenly going to get a stronger book of mares through selection? I can't believe the "Giant's Causeway has been bred to everything under the sun" spin that people write.....at $300,000, you think breeders were sending Lassie to him? Did commercial breeders care about the $300,000 fee if their yearlings were still bringing $1 Million?

If you're talking about mare selection, that would entail nick patterns and comformation studies....I don't think Coolmore knows what they are.

If anything, GC is nowhere as overbred as Chapel Royale, Johannesburg, and others in the Coolmore barn. Is Coolmore now being "picky" with Giant's Causeway mares, or could it be that he finished #77 on the Two Year Olds Earning List of 2006 and there just aren't as many takers any more? Does the commercial market now view First Samurai as a "fluke" and Giant's Causeway as a grass sire?

[Tappiano]

I think any farm that takes just about any mare into a stallions book regardless of whether it's beneficial for the breed is just plain wrong. That being said I got the impression from reading this thread that everyone took it for granted that 300K was the stud fee and that is not the case.

There is no room in this market for the breeder or breeding farm that want to better the breed. It's a breed to sell market and your mare can be crooked as hell and so can the stallion but still there is such a great appeal because of the "pedigree" that the offspring command a fortune.

I've studied pedigrees for over 30 years and the breed has been in such decline that most have no clue that it will take decades to recover and that will never happen if the 200+ mare books to a "popular" stallion continue.

Edited to finish...

GC got more hype than most of their stallions early on because he had more than one outstanding runner and the fee was adjusted accordingly. I will offer my opinion which is he still has potential.

[Rokeby Forever]

Tappiano wrote, "GC got more hype than most of their stallions early on because he had more than one outstanding runner and the fee was adjusted accordingly."

Sharmadal and who else? Giant's Causeway had only 13% winners/foals in 2004. The same year, Fu Peg finished ahead of him in 2 year old earnings - and had sired Roman Ruler in that crop.

[Worksoplad]

To answer Sysonby: the USA market does NOT spend $1 Million on a yearling hoping for a turf horse. That's what Giant's Causeway, by and large, sires. Once again...his niche is with Euro mares - keep him in Europe!

According to the "Blood Horse" magazine, GC had total earnings of $8,106,554 in 2006 of which $6,002,475 was earned in the U.S. He had 126 starters, 63 winners and 9 SWs in the US, finishing fourth overall.

On the other hand, he had 88r, 31w, and 5SWs and total earnings of $1,188,385 in Europe and Dubai.

If that is being unsuccessful in the U S market, I wouldn't mind some of it myself.

[Worksoplad]

Tappiano wrote, "GC got more hype than most of their stallions early on because he had more than one outstanding runner and the fee was adjusted accordingly."

Sharmadal and who else? Giant's Causeway had only 13% winners/foals in 2004. The same year, Fu Peg finished ahead of him in 2 year old earnings - and had sired Roman Ruler in that crop.

How about Maids Causeway, Footstepsinthesands, My Typhoon, and First Samurai?

[Rokeby Forever]

First Samurai was from his 2nd crop. Aragorn, My Typhoon, Naissance Royale, and Oonagh Maccool were not top 2 year olds...and they're all out of Euro mares (all bred in Ireland). Take a look at his USA bred offspring...you'll see Giant's Causeway results somewhere between poor and abysmal.

Nice to know that Irish bred horses are suddenly welcomed by commercial buyers. Why are people then buying Storm Cats, Unbridled's Songs, Forestrys, Distorted Humors, and other high valued American commercial sire offspring? Worksoplad...if you want to breed to Giant's Causeway in Ireland, go for it! But, why would you want to do it here?

[Sysonby]

Did Giant's Causeway step on your foot at some point? Why the unmitigated hatred for a stallion that no one is forcing anyone to breed to?

Here's a link to the statistical sire summary by equineline (as opposed to the statistical sire summary by rokeby)

http://www.equineline.com/extendedconte ... ID=1443262

If you like what you see, call Ashford. If not, don't.

[Ill-bred]

Looking at those equineline stats and adjusting for his crop of 171 current two-year-olds, I don't see a single statistical category in which Giant's Causeway could be considered an elite sire at this point in his career.

The only thing that stood out to me is his average winning distance, which is quite long at over one mile.

[Rokeby Forever]

Those are the exact numbers that back up what I keep saying. He's lifetime 35% winners (176 out of 507) and lifetime 13% two year old winners (65 out of 507). His major earners are European, his AEI/CI stinks, and what I find MOST glaring is that people are starting to agree - look at his lifetime sale averages. His yearlings average $265,000...not what the commercial breeder looks for when he pays the kind of $$$ he does to breed to Giant's Causeway.

What's interesting is that his colts sell for more than 50% more than his fillies, which makes no sense. That suggests that buyers think a son of Giant's Causeway has stud potential, when they should really look to his fillies for their broodmare potential...GC should be a good broodie sire one day based on the strengths of the families he's been bred to.

I'm all ears, Sysonby...tell me how I'm reading GC's stats incorrectly. I didn't realize that stating facts equated to hatrid. If you want me to get into hatrid, I'll rattle off Buddha's first year stats. LOL!

[Rokeby Forever]

Is there any way to break down GC's lifetime earnings turf vs dirt and USA bred vs internationally bred? If there is a way, would it be going out on a limb to say that the bulk of GC's success (or lack thereof) is turf and foreign breds?

[FOS]

hi guys

What has become clear (to me anyway) is that All Things Considered...Giant's Causeway is an underachiever of HUGE proportion.

Respectfully