Artificial insemination: How prevalent is it?

[CA Michael]

I totally disagree that QH's are less inbred now than in the past. Pure TB stallions are now a rarity in the QH industry. In years past, TB's like THREE BARS, JET DECK, ROCKET BARS, *BEDUINO, AZURE TE, RAISE YOUR GLASS, SHIRLEYS CHAMPION, HEMPEN, REB'S POLICY, ZEVI, OLD PUEBLO, MOOLAH BUX, L'NATURAL, MASTER HAND, etc., were zealously bred to QH mares with great success. Those days are over; occasionally a QH mare is ourcrossed to a good KY horse, like GROOVY and the ill-fated HENNESSY, but in virtually every QH stallion register, stakes review and sale catalog I have been reading for the last umpteen years, the pedigrees are overwhelmingly full of inbreeding to Dash For Cash, his sons, *Beduino, and perhaps two or three other QH stallions.

[bdw0617]

that really good QH out at Los Al that won the first leg of their triple crown in record time... does he have alot of Dash for Cash in his pedigree?

[Sam]

I suggest you look again, Michael. Quite a few of the leading QH racing sires today -- like Streakin La Jolla, his son Mr. Jess Perry -- don't have a drop of Dash For Cash/First Down Dash in them. Scoop Vessels has also bred many horses, including two champions, from his TBs sires. See Hateful Hanna and Old Habits In fact, Apollo is breeding more winning QHs than he is TBs.

Again, the racing QH is no more inbred than our TBs. Yes, there is a lot of Dash For Cash and Beduino... that's because they are the QH equivalent to Northern Dancer and Mr. Prospector.

The current leader by earnings is Carter's Cartel. Does he look any more inbred than our TBs?

How about the #2 horse, Wild Six

The Leading sire by winners is Mr. Eye Opener whose only inbreeding is to Go Man Go. If his winners are carrying a line of Beduino or Dash For Cash, is that any different than the half dozen 3x3 Prospectors I entered under Flatter last night?

The late, great, Strawfly Special still has plenty of broodies out there being bred and is still a leading sire of winners as of today.

How about leading sire, Tres Seis? Heck of a lot of TB in him... I think I see Khaled in there, but not a drop of Dash For Cash or Beduino.

You talk about adding TB blood now.. you mean like Hennessey? For a champion like Check Him Out? Hey, I don't mind, like I said earlier, I was just starting to warm up to Hennessey as a sire.. but you're going to get on Roke's bad side by encouraging QHs to 'poison' themselves with Storm Cat blood.

Favorite Trick has had a few good ones, too, like the ill-fated Prankster CF and oddly enough, he's inbred to the TB Noholme.

Grand Slam has also sired a couple of QH stakes winners in Hero's Call and Oak Canyon

Are racing QHs inbred? Of course, but again, no more than our TBs. Do they have an over abundance of one or two sirelines? Yes, again, just like the TBs. They have Dash For Cash, his son First Down Dash and Beduino. We have Northern Dancer, his grandson Storm Cat and Mr. Prospector. What are they doing about? Taking advantage of AI and breeding to horses like Hennessey, Favorite Trick, Apollo, In Excess and Grand Slam. What are WE doing about it? Damning AI and claiming it's the cause of the QH being inbred.

Lunacy.

[CA Michael]

Sam, you didn't pay attention to my actual words. I explained that the number of TB stallions in full use by the QH industry is far, far less than in earlier decades. Your selections of Grand Slam, Hennessy and Favorite Trick were never used extensively by QH people; it was their connection to Wayne Lukas and Dee Hubbard that allowed a few select mares to be covered AI by them.

Beyond this error, you clearly haven't picked up many QH catalogs, stakes reviews or stallion registers. If you had, and studied their five generation pedigrees on the All-Breed board, you wouldn't have erred again.

I suggest that you look at a broader spectrum of QH pedigrees before making your next false decree.

[griff]

racing QHs are 99% TB

griff

[CA Michael]

griff;

What is your source of that statistic?

[Sam]

Beyond this error, you clearly haven't picked up many QH catalogs, stakes reviews or stallion registers. If you had, and studied their five generation pedigrees on the All-Breed board, you wouldn't have erred again.

I suggest that you look at a broader spectrum of QH pedigrees before making your next false decree.

I tell you what, Michael. You believe in your hallucinations, and I'll believe in fact.

In case you're wondering, friend of mine is a writer for the AQHA Journal. Any time I have a question or need a fact checked on QHs, I have Andrea on speed dial. I spend as much time purusing QH catalogues as I do TB catalogues... and the inbreeding is pretty much the same. There are just as many TBs being used today as there were 30 years ago. The difference is 30 years ago it was stallions, now it's broodies.

And again, I notice you dodged my questions about the stallions on the Leading CA sires list. Just going to completely ignore that all together, aren't you?

[CA Michael]

Either prove your edict or don't. But cut the connection to the top crap. It doesn't sustain your argument one bit.

I didn't see any question about the leading CA sires. Must be mired in the mass of other hyperbole that I skipped over.

[Sam]

I didn't see any question about the leading CA sires.

2007 Leading Sires of California

There's 348 horses on that list. Ignoring the dead/pensioned/20yo stallions who are sinking to the bottom through attrition, how many of those horses are really worth fighting for? How many of them do you honestly think should be at stud and are worth breeding to? How many of them would YOU personally like to own and would breed your own mares to?

Kris Kross (Kris S.) has no business being at stud. YEA! Fun Devil (Devil His Due) is 1 for 1 with his starters and has made a whopping $6,210 as a sire. You really want to breed to that?

People come on here all the time and ask about a mare's suitability for breeding... none of us have a problem saying when they think the mare is garbage and should be someone's pet, but you're going to fight to keep horses like Paster's Caper and King Excess in the stallion ranks? Do you see how illogical that is?

In bold for your benefit since you missed them the first time, Michael.

Beyond that, facts are facts. The QH is no more inbred today than it was 30 years ago. AI had nothing to do with that, it's just the way they breed and their horses are no more inbred than the TBs are.

As for "proving my edict"... what good would it do? Any proof I provide, you'd ignore. Just like you're ignoring the fact that Windfall isn't locked down as you posted a few days ago. Doesn't suit your purposes.

How's that dead mare you just bought?

[casallc]

I totally disagree that QH's are less inbred now than in the past. Pure TB stallions are now a rarity in the QH industry. In years past, TB's like THREE BARS, JET DECK, ROCKET BARS, *BEDUINO, AZURE TE, RAISE YOUR GLASS, SHIRLEYS CHAMPION, HEMPEN, REB'S POLICY, ZEVI, OLD PUEBLO, MOOLAH BUX, L'NATURAL, MASTER HAND, etc., were zealously bred to QH mares with great success. Those days are over; occasionally a QH mare is ourcrossed to a good KY horse, like GROOVY and the ill-fated HENNESSY, but in virtually every QH stallion register, stakes review and sale catalog I have been reading for the last umpteen years, the pedigrees are overwhelmingly full of inbreeding to Dash For Cash, his sons, *Beduino, and perhaps two or three other QH stallions.

Jet Deck wasn't a thoroughbred. Dash For Cash was 3/4 TB out of a To Market mare. The thing that most all QH sires (TB's) had in common is they were "cheap speed" horses. There have been several QH mares that have been bred to fashionable KY horses but were for the most part dismal failures. If you are going to be crossing QH mares you need dead shot sprinters that excel at 5f and under. Of all the horses you named none of them carry what is hot for TB breeders today (except Bold Ruler if that is still fashionable). It is a different market, leading TB sires would be failures crossing on QH mares. There are lots other QH sires that are TB‘s. Killoqua, R. Smith, Red Jones, Top Deck, Depth Charge, Old Fols and Thermos to name a few. Old Pueblo and Moolah Bux were known as better broodmare sires and never had many runners. Breeders want what is fashionable in both breeds, but fashionable is not necessarily functional.
The foundation of quarter running horses were Leo mares, those Leo mares crossed on TB sires proved very consistently. Leo wasn't much of a racehorse sire but his daughters were producers. Here's inbreeding:
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/leo5

[CA Michael]

casall,

Thanks, I meant to say Top Deck, from the King Ranch. Jet Deck, of course was his best son. Dash For Cash was actually 7/8 TB (but who's counting?). He was also from the same Imperatrice female family as Secretariat. And I agree, the TB stallions which have excelled as QH sires were cheap speed, although Azure Te, Shirley's Champion, Old Pueblo and *Ole Fols were at least the equivalent of Grade 2 or Grade 3 SW's.

Nevertheless, there are definitely fewer TB stallions of any caliber being used on QH mares today. A few good QH mares are AI'd to Walmac stallions, but that's about it, especially that Hennessy is now gone. Thus, the omnipresent First Down Dash, Dash For Cash, and the others I listed are duplicated in much greater quantities than are Mr. P, Seattle Slew and Storm Cat, who are in the same age range.

I bet you read the Heritage and Ruidoso sale catalogs, as well as the annual QH stakes reviews. Wouldn't you agree that you see more inbreeding in those books than in Keeneland, Fasig Tipton, OBS and Blood Horse publications?

[griff]

Dash For Cash was 93% TB

griff

[Sam]

Nevertheless, there are definitely fewer TB stallions of any caliber being used on QH mares today.

That is your perception based on your narrow observance of RACING QHs, it is not fact. Not even for racing QHs (as shown by the examples cited -- or do I need to bring out even more for you to ignore?). You've lodged an opinion in your mind and no amount of facts will deter you from it.

Still waiting for you to answer the above asked questions (which you've now ducked a 3rd time) about the California stallions, Michael.

[casallc]

casall,

Thanks, I meant to say Top Deck, from the King Ranch. Jet Deck, of course was his best son. Dash For Cash was actually 7/8 TB (but who's counting?). He was also from the same Imperatrice female family as Secretariat. And I agree, the TB stallions which have excelled as QH sires were cheap speed, although Azure Te, Shirley's Champion, Old Pueblo and *Ole Fols were at least the equivalent of Grade 2 or Grade 3 SW's.

Nevertheless, there are definitely fewer TB stallions of any caliber being used on QH mares today. A few good QH mares are AI'd to Walmac stallions, but that's about it, especially that Hennessy is now gone. Thus, the omnipresent First Down Dash, Dash For Cash, and the others I listed are duplicated in much greater quantities than are Mr. P, Seattle Slew and Storm Cat, who are in the same age range.

I bet you read the Heritage and Ruidoso sale catalogs, as well as the annual QH stakes reviews. Wouldn't you agree that you see more inbreeding in those books than in Keeneland, Fasig Tipton, OBS and Blood Horse publications?

Actually Jet Deck was by Moon Deck but you are getting closer. I don't know as I would agree about the inbreeding, you might see more close up in quarterhorses but several generations back the gene pool is much narrower in the TB's. Quarterhorse folks dont seem to have as much problem with inbreeding close up if you have a complete outcross to bring vigor. I really don't keep up with quarters much anymore but I still glance the catalogs just to see how some of the horses I have bred are coming along. You know you are getting old when stock you've bred is 3,4 and 5 generations back.

[Sam]

I realize this is an exercise in futility because you'll never back down from this, Michael, but open your mind a bit and look at the following:

Entries for August 17th at Ruidoso Downs, NM

First race. 2yo Maiden Claiming:

Could Be Anything Sired by Relegate, a purebred TB grandson of Clever Trick, who was the leading TB sire of QHs in 2004. No inbreeding for 5 generations. No Dash For Cash, First Down Dash, Beduino.

Lady Farnsworth Seperatist over Dash For Cash. 4x4 Mayshego only.

MB Corona Dancer 4x3 First Down Dash only.

Pretty Ashley Ann 3x3 Special Effort, 4x5x5 Easy Jet. No Dash For Cash or Beduino.

Tacareno 3x4 Dash For Cash, 5x5 Rocket Bar, Lady Bugs Moon, and Moon Deck. DFC over Beduino

Mischievous Flash 3x4 DFC, 4x4 Streakin Six, 5x5 Jet Deck and To Market

Barroom Napkin DFC sireline. 5x5x5x5 Jet Deck only.

Bad Girl Miracle DFC broodie sireline. 5x5 Rocket Bar only.

Substantial Effort Beduino broodie sireline. 5/8 Thoroughbred

Hard Four Hoppin 5x4x3x DFC.

Velocity Street By City Street, a purebred TB son of Carson City out of a DFC line mare.

Rockin Patriot Act Beduino over DFC. 3x4 DFC only.

Second race. 3yo&^ Claiming:

Go Figure 5/8 Thoroughbred. 4x3 Three Bars. No DFC or Beduino.

Ivan Tamas DFC sireline. 5x4 Jet Deck only.

Ice On The Rocks DFC broodie sireline. 5x5x5 Top Deck.

Megasail Outcross for 5 gens. No DFC or Beduino. 3/8 TB

Panza Bank DFC sireline. No inbreeding (sire is inbred, this horse is not) 1/2 TB.

Zippersnslippers IS a Thoroughbred... Prospector over Dancer. 4x5 Dancer

Genius At Large DFC sireline. 1/2 TB (RAN over Bold Ruler)

Sitters Feature No DFC or Beduino. Outcross for 5 generations. 5/8 Thoroughbred.

Sapello Skip Beduino sireline out of a Skip Trial mare. 7/8 Thoroughbred.

What say you, Michael? Should I keep going? The next 4 races on that card are Derby Trials. Should I grab the entries for Saratoga on the 17th? Think they'll be any less inbred? Think we'll few instances of the names Prospector, Dancer and Storm Cat? If we replaced Dash For Cash with Northern Dancer and Beduino with Mr. Prospector (or even DFC with Prospector and Beduino with Dancer) do you really believe those horses are any more inbred than today's TB?