Good sires who have no black type?

[Rokeby Forever]

I would think that Mr. Prospector, Fappiano, Unbridled and Unbridled's Song is a better example.

Yes, that is a better example to illustrate my point. Although, I have my reservations about Unbridled's Song.

It matters little, you are entitled to your opinion, and in mine Storm Cat has established that he can be regarded as a sire of sires.

Indeed, we each have our own opinions, but I'm sure you can appreciate that Mr P, Fappiano, Unbridled is in a different league from Storm Cat, Tabasco Cat, Cat's At Home.

[DDT]

Rokeby Forever


Yes I would agree but not much better than say Storm Cat, Hennessy, Johannesburg or may be Storm Cat, Harlan, Menifee. I do agree about Unbridled's Song so let's put Empire Maker in there instead. Opinions are a great part of what keeps this industry alive and well.

DDT

[Rokeby Forever]

Hi DDT,

Opinions are a great part of what keeps this industry alive and well.

Yep - the give and take over any topic is what makes PQ a great place.

I think it's a wee bit of a stretch to compare Fappiano/Unbridled to either Hennessey/Johannesburg or Harlan/Menifee. J-Burg is striking at 3.5% SWs (less than the overall average of 4% for grandsons of Storm Cat) and isn't Menifee standing in Korea this year?

Just out of curiousity, how would you compare Storm Cat/Hennessey/Johannesburg to Mr P/Machiavellian/Street Cry?

[DDT]

Rokeby Forever

Come on, can't you take a joke, comparing Mr. Prospector, Fappiano and Unbridled or Mr. Prospector, Machiavellian and Street Cry to my examples is futile to say the least. Now, on the other hand Norther Dancer, Danzig and Danehill, or Northern Dancer, Nijinsky II, Caerleon and Generous now we can make some kind of comparison.

DDT

[Rokeby Forever]

Hi DDT,

I didn't think you were completely serious. LOL!

Northern Dancer did have his share of sons that were duds as sires, but there's something interesting about him - his best racing sons weren't his best sons at stud. In the case of Storm Cat, I can't think of a lesser son or lightly raced son that stands for more than $10,000. For those that thought Storm Cat could sire a lesser/lightly raced son that would be a top sire in time, they've been (to this point) gravely mistaken.

Who would you say is the best grandson of Storm Cat at stud right now? Would it be J-Burg? And after that...maybe Harlan's Holiday off his freshman year? That's why I'm not sold on Storm Cat being a "Sire of sires." He has plenty of sons at stud, but I don't see the overall quality of the breed being improved by any more than a handful of them.

[DDT]

Rokeby Forever

I think because the majority of the Northern Dancers raced in Europe it is difficult to judge how good his good runners were. Nijinsky II surely was his best racing son and he was no dud as a stallion. The Minstrel is a different story, but then there is Sadlers Wells and although Danzig never won a stakes race he was 3 for 3 and he certainly was a good sire. Storm Bird, the sire of Storm Cat was a champion and did well at stud. I believe of all the grandsons of Northern Dancer, Storm Cat has compiled the best record at stud at least in North America. I think because Northern Dancer was bred to the very best mares during the last half of his tenure at stud and consequently he has some unraced and lightly raced sons that are good broodmare sires, a reflection of the good female familes involved. At any rate, I like Harlans Holiday, but time will tell, I think Joburg has a chance to be something special, he sure could run and has sired a couple of good horses, time will tell. I know that Storm Cat has many detractors but I believe he will ultimately be a leading broodmare sire for many years. A lot of people share the opinion that he has hurt the breed more than helped, but at the age of 24 he can still deliver the goods when it comes to breeding a race horse, crazy, ill willed or not.

DDT

[wallinga]

Rokeby Forever

I think because the majority of the Northern Dancers raced in Europe it is difficult to judge how good his good runners were. Nijinsky II surely was his best racing son and he was no dud as a stallion. The Minstrel is a different story,

I agree, Nijinsky was a good sire, Sadlers Wells was a super racehorse (Montjeu is still the only progeny of his that has rated higher than him at three) The Minstrel sired champions but was disappointing

I believe of all the grandsons of Northern Dancer, Storm Cat has compiled the best record at stud at least in North America.

Danehill has him covered overall... and I'm a fan of the cat

[Rokeby Forever]

I know that Storm Cat has many detractors but I believe he will ultimately be a leading broodmare sire for many years.

I agree, but not because Storm Cat contributes to that equation - the strength of the female families that he's been bred to has to make him a good broodmare sire.

Let's supposed that Storm Flag Flying foals a champion. Is it because Storm Cat is her sire, or because her female family has foaled champion after champion?

[DDT]

Rokeby Forever

Storm Cat is already a good broodmare sire he will not have to improve much to be a leading broodmare sire. At any rate, yes I agree that his dam and her sire, Secretariat are mainly responsible for this success, but some of those Storm Bird genes will come through.

I would say that My Flag, Easy Goer/Personal Ensign, Private Account/Grecian Banner and Hoist The Flag/Dorine would have a lot to do with any of Storm Flag Flyings' foals, but again, having Storm Cat as her sire has something to do with her and her foals.

You just don't give up do you. I suppose all of his 150+ stakes winners were mainly due to his mares' influence, right?

DDT

[Rokeby Forever]

I would say that My Flag, Easy Goer/Personal Ensign, Private Account/Grecian Banner and Hoist The Flag/Dorine would have a lot to do with any of Storm Flag Flyings' foals, but again, having Storm Cat as her sire has something to do with her and her foals.

Hi DDT,

It seems that you don't give up. LOL!

Was Easy Goer such a great sire broodmare sire that we could have expected My Flag to foal a champion? Of course not...it was through her family. Are Storm Cat and AP Indy what they are because Secretariat is their broodmare sire, or is it because they're out of Terlingua and Weekend Surprise? If female family isn't 90% of the equation, why hasn't Lady's Secret been a top broodmare for Secretariat? Take a look at her female family and figure it out.

I suppose all of his 150+ stakes winners were mainly due to his mares' influence, right?

I never wrote that Storm Cat wasn't a good sire, oe even a great sire. I'm writing that when it comes to being a broodmare sire, the female family is a more determining factor of success.

Would you agree that Alysheba was a disappointment as a sire? He's a pretty good broodmare sire. Why is that? Turkoman was a disappointment as a sire, but he's the broodmare sire of Hard Spun...is Hard Spun what he is because Turkoman's the broodmare sire or because his dam is out of a great Darby Dan family?

Your turn to not give up. LOL!

[DDT]

Rokeby Forever

I certainly would expect a daughter of Easy Goer to produce a champion, especially if that daughter was a GR1 winner who was produced by an undefeated champion stakes producing mare. It does not surprise me that champion winning sons of Alydar are turning out to be good broodmare sires because Alydar himself was a great broodmare sire. I do not have to look at the pedigree of Lady's Secret to understand why she was not a good producing broodmare, she certainly could have an abundance of influence from Icecapade, all of Secretariat's daughters are not champion producing broodmares but most assuredly Terlingua and Weekend Surprise contributed to the success of Storm Cat and A.P. Indy and their respective female families will contribute to their success as broodmare sires but not 90%. I think Danzig had a lot to do with why Hard Spun ran the way he did, Turkoman and his female family helped but Danzig was there also.

There are many well bred mares from blue hen female familys that never produce a champion or even a stakes winner. Having a strong female family is, in my opinion, an absolute requirement if you expect to breed a champion that will eventually become a champion sire or broodmare or broodmare sire.

DDT

[DDT]

Rokeby Forever

If you want to know what I think about successful broodmare sires check out my article on http://pedigreepost.net. It is titled "Is the X-Factor the Answer". Just click archives and scroll down to find it.

DDT

[Rokeby Forever]

Hi DDT,

I can't disagree with all that much (this time LOL), but as far as the statement:

It does not surprise me that champion winning sons of Alydar are turning out to be good broodmare sires because Alydar himself was a great broodmare sire.

Again, I have to go back to the point that his best sons covered tremendous books. Alydar's well bred, good sons (as opposed to champion sons) haven't been as nearly as successful as broodmare sires simply because they were bred to weaker books with broodmares that often didn't descend from strong producing families. Many of Alydar's good sons were very well bred - Criminal Type, Dare And Go, and Saratoga Six, to name a few. They all carry Alydar - why aren't they good broodmare sires?

I'm personally not a believer in the X-Factor or X-Gene. If it existed, every horse with parents carrying the X-Gene would have it, and they don't.

[DDT]

Rokeby Forever

I believe that using Criminal Type (stood mainly in Japan) and Dare and Go (died young) to make a point is clouded by their opportunities and I would say that Saratoga Six was a pretty good broodmare sire, but we agree on many things and I certainly agree that the X-factor theory is hard to get behind and I personally think that it involves more than one mutated gene and certain conditions must be present for a larger than normal heart to be expressed. And of course I think that having a larger heart does not equate to a champion or a winner by itself.

Most people agree that the strength of the female family and opportunity are the keys to broodmare sire success. Again, how you define success must also be considered. For example, Mr. Prospector has been a leading broodmare sire by earnings for at least the last 8 to 10 years but he also had the highest number of mares in production and was at the top or near the top for number of starters during this period. It stands to reason that a stalliion with these numbers representing him should be at the top or close to the top of a list calculated by earnings.

Take the case of Affirmed and Alydar, both from the same tail male line but Alydar's female family was the better of the two and he turned out to be the better sire. Some would argue that Alydar had an advantage with opportunity and it is hard to believe that neither of these two have sons that will continue their lines to any great degree and both will be seen in pedigrees mainly through their daughters.

DDT

[Rokeby Forever]

Again, how you define success must also be considered. For example, Mr. Prospector has been a leading broodmare sire by earnings for at least the last 8 to 10 years but he also had the highest number of mares in production and was at the top or near the top for number of starters during this period. It stands to reason that a stalliion with these numbers representing him should be at the top or close to the top of a list calculated by earnings.

Hi DDT,

That's what I tried to point out about when you mentioned the "success" of new Storm Cat sons Hold That Tiger and Van Nistelrooy - of new sires on the Freshman Top 100, they had the two largest books.

Take the case of Affirmed and Alydar, both from the same tail male line but Alydar's female family was the better of the two and he turned out to be the better sire. Some would argue that Alydar had an advantage with opportunity and it is hard to believe that neither of these two have sons that will continue their lines to any great degree and both will be seen in pedigrees mainly through their daughters.

I have no idea why Alydar's sire lines are hanging by a bare thread - possibly a complete rejection of Bull Lea?

Affirmed turned out to be a pretty good turf sire, but you're right - there isn't much in his female tail to suggest that he would have been a top sire, much like Spectacular Bid. However, he was bred to some very strong families, so his name is generally found on the bottom of today's pedigrees.

It's a tragedy with Affirmed - I think he was the best racehorse of the 20th Century, and he wasn't able to sire a son that was good enough to continue a sire line with any success. He proves that there's no gene for a tremendous will to win..a horse either has that will or it doesn't.

But this goes back to the center point of my argument - that if female families are strong enough, just about any sire can become a good broodmare sire. In that regard, I think Storm Cat has to be a top broodmare sire, but it won't be because he's on the bottom of a pedigree as much as the female tails that he's linked with.