Awful stallion Giant's Causeway ...

[Rokeby Forever]

I rarely find myself in disagreement with FOS.

You've seen his comment. So it is written, so it shall be done!

[dray33]

Awful? That's harsh. It's a matter of perspective. At $300,000, awful anywhere. At the "right" price, still pretty awful for US breeders. Euro turf breeders at the right price, pretty darn good.

[wallinga]

Why didn't they move northern dancer to europe, when all the best ones were over there. Why don't they move Kingmambo? If he was to be moved there he would be in direct competition to Montjeu coolmores number one young gun over there, europeans can still breed to him and buy his yearlings in the us. He has a little more broad appeal this way

[Rokeby Forever]

Northern Dancer wound up becoming a "freak sire" that only the Sheikh and BBA (Sangster/Magnier) could afford to bid on - what difference would moving him had made?

Giant's Causeway might be moved in time...who knows? The whole point of racing Giant's Causeway in the BC Classic was to hope (for Coolmore's sake) that he'd run well to gain American appeal. It worked. They tried it with George Washington and it failed. But his numbers aren't appealing to the American Market as much as they once were - sales results prove that. We'll see what Coolomore decides in the next 2 or 3 years.

If Coolmore is looking to avoid "direct competition to Montjou," where do they plan to stand Dylan Thomas, Shirocco, George Washington, or any other Euro turfer that they decide to keep? I think they unloaded King Of Kings...are they going to unload these, as well?

I think (IMO) that when Kingmambo entered stud in 1994 (I believe it was), Europeans still looked for "durable" type sires (ala Alleged and types like that). Kingmambo was lightly raced in his career, which is much more appealing to the American commercial market. The when Kingmambo sired Lemon Drop Kid, made himself out to be a Classic type sire. I assume that's why he's stayed here. By siring just First Samurai on the dirt, Giant's Causeway has no reason to.

[hpkingjr]

When I start to review many of the GC Irish born stakes winners, their pedigrees are mostly USA breds, in many cases 100% USA breeding. Is this success just chance or is there a better explanation? Why would not a Mr. P line mare bred here produce the same results as over there? Is the answer merely turf or style of racing? Training methods? Will the odds flip and the success be better here in the next few years?

I certainly do not have the answers and please note I can be easly confused.

[Rokeby Forever]

That's a good question, hpking....I'm hoping a comformation expert might have the answer....because I'm guessing that maybe Giant's Causeway is a "mare specific" type of sire and he needs a mare with "Euro comformation" as opposed to "American comformation." I can't really identify from his best runners the one single nick pattern that stands out, but maybe his better foals come out of mares that have similar comformations. Any ideas?

[hpkingjr]

Interesting thought. What is in your experience "Euro" vs "USA" or even "South American" conformation. We toured New Zealand a few years ago and I was struck by how much bone and substance most of the horses we looked at exhibited.

[Rokeby Forever]

I'm an "American Conformation" guy...I think the Euros tend to be longer pasterned, more "grass built" types of horses. Maybe that's what works best with GC....or maybe, he needs a mare of a certain height. I don't know the answer.

I don't want to judge all South Americans by a picture of Invasor.

[Intrinsic Worth]

I didn't think Euro horses generally had longer pasterns (except for some of the Sadler's Wells offspring.) Overall, I found them to be bigger boned, sturdier built and they had tougher attitudes. I think we baby our racehorses and have made them weak.

[hpkingjr]

GC had two recent Grade 3 winners, Giant Wrecker in the Canadian Turf and Naissance Royale(Ire) in the Suwannee River at Gulfstream.

Giant Wrecker is out of a Buckaroo mare, Homewrecker and her damsire was The Axe II. She had two AP Indy's that made a combined $890.00 and a Slew that was unraced. She has produced four other stakes horses but her pedigree is 100% Red White and Blue.

Naissance Royale (Ire) is out of a Forty Niner mare Net Worth out of a Private Account mare, again 100% Red White and Blue.

I don't think of Forty Niner or Buckaroo mares as being grass types or particularly large boned or stout. Both of these were turf stakes and both mares were five years of age. Certainly not Euro bloodlines but I have no knowledge of the dams body type, size etc.

[wallinga]

The breeding world is certainly shrinking, many of storm cats have been going to europe for sometim along with a slew of Nijinski's Kingmambo's Nureyevs etc

[Rokeby Forever]

That was my point, hpking...there's no "one ot two" nicks that you can point to with Giant's Causeway that do especially well, which leads me to believe that there's something else similiar with the mares that produce successful foals by him.

What's overwhelmingly similiar is that his grass runners are wayyyyy outperforming his dirt runners. Except for First Samurai, he hasn't sired a "speedy" type horse, so if he's been bred to speed mares, their speed is not an influence in his foals - the average winning distance of his foals is over a mile. Do most Giant's Causeway foals have a "turf comformation" as opposed to a "dirt comformation," even if the foal is out of a "dirt bred" mare? I don't know!

[wallinga]

Perhaps he's a dominant type stallion. His best horse is out of a sister to Street Cry definately a dirt horse (albeit by Machiavellan out of a troy mare a definate turf pedigree)

Do you think there is any hope for him in the states Rokeby?

[Rokeby Forever]

Wallinga...as long as he keeps siring turf horses, I don't see a reason for him to stay in the US - what high end buyer in the US wants a grass horse? How many grass horses run 5 times, break down, and go to stud at 3 years old with a $25,000 stud fee?

[geowarrior]

I personally would like to see the U.S. really embrace grass and distance. So although I agree that Giant's Causeway looks like a bit of a damp squib on dirt, I'd like to see him stay and I'd like for there to be a set of breeders that aim for the big turf races and breed to him accordingly. I strongly believe that long turf races are highly entertaining and that dirt sprints are less so. So go Giant's Causeway! Rokeby, this isn't a criticism of your arguments which I consider basically sound. This is just an expression of what I'd like to see - more distance, more turf - and I think Giant's Causeway can help provide it.