I have a question? Who is the WORST Stallion you know?

[Rokeby Forever]

Agreed, FOS.

Unfortunately, Saint Ballado died at an early age (at 13 or 14, I believe), so he didn't get to have a 20 year sire career. His only two racing sons left (that come to mind) that may have a possible stallion career ahead are Sunriver and Saint Stephen. I'm guessing that our friend, Mr Brogers, remains optimistic about Saint Ballado as a "sire of sires" because of some of the connections behind those two horses.

With the addition of synthetics and Polytrack, turf oriented horses have new hope in the breeding shed. Could Saint Stephen and/or Sunriver be successful stallions one day? With the new surfaces, I guess it's possible...but the same can be said of many other turf oriented prospects.

[Sam]

When you're looking at a stallion, don't forget to spare a thought or two about the mare base he is serving, and whether it fits him as a stallion.

I'm thinking Forbidden Apple here. He is the epitome of the LONG winded turf runner, and he's standing in Florida to a bunch of super-speedy dirt mares (which is what Florida does very well). He might come up with a good one or two (or not), but I'd say that if he were standing in an area with a lot of, say, turf miler mares he might have more success.

There are enough Kris S. mare and son of Kris S. mares down in FL for him to get the turfers, too. The question is whether someone will breed them to him.

[FOS]

hi Rok

Could Saint Stephen (by Saint Ballado) and/or Sunriver (by Saint Ballado) be successful stallions one day?

It's possible...but, they don't appeal to me, as sire prospects. Why?

for starters...

Exhibit #1 - Captain Bodgit (G1 winner and sire by Saint Ballado)

Exhibit #2 - Flame Thrower (G2 winner and sire by Saint Ballado)

Exhibit #3 - Straight Man (G2 winner and sire by Saint Ballado)

Exhibit #4 - Sweetsouthernsaint (G3 winner and sire by Saint Ballado)

Exhibit #5 - Yankee Victor (G1 winner and sire by Saint Ballado)

If Saint Stephen and Sunriver were fillies, then you might pique my interest.

Respectfully

[Rokeby Forever]

Hiya FOS,

Game, set, match.

Best,
Rok

[bdw0617]

Saint Ballado is going to be remembered more of a great sire of A (as in one) dam than a great sire.

[Rokeby Forever]

Do you mean the one that Pleasant Home beat by 10 lengths?

[halo]

Im not sure what you point is about Sweetsouthernsaint, other than he has done remarkably well with little support. Ocala Stud will breed any mare that can walk to their stallions. Personally, I think its a good policy; you'll be able to see what stallions can do on their own with average mares. His AEI thru 2006 is 1.52 with a CI of 1.03. He himself was only a Grade 3 winner, so he was lucky to get any chance at stud at all. I defy anyone to find a better value in the entire country for $3,500.

[Maven]

I agree, Halo. And add the fact that most of his sons currently at stud who have runners come from extremely average (if not worse) female families, i'm not sure what you were expecting at this point?

[Rokeby Forever]

1. How was this a "degrading" post? I pulled these numbers off of Brisnet yesterday! Did I say anything to the effect that SSS was a bum? I was pointing out that Evansville Slew is a better value:

I defy anyone to find a better value in the entire country for $3,500.

Evansville Slew at $2,500.

Evansville Slew:
6% SWs/foals
$50,421 average earnings/runner
$22,443 median runner earnings
8 offspring earned more than $250,000
Mare AEI = .094

Sweetsouthernsaint:
4% SWs/foals
$42,161 average earnings/runner
$18,042 median runner rearnings
4 offspring have earned more than $250,000
Mare AEI = 1.06

How are these facts, "twisted?"

2. I didn't say there were Valid Appeal mares still around...I used the term "Valid Appeal family blood." That means daughters/granddaughters are around. And, for passing on soundness, I think they're worth their weight in gold.

3. As for your other points, I agree with some and disagree with others. Maybe the most moot, but until a SSS offspring can earn half of what SNS has earned, I'll stick to my guns as SSS being a "one hit wonder." But that's not by all means a slam...At The Threshold was a one hit wonder with Lil E Tee.

Good luck at the races today. I'm in a race on Monday.

[Maven]

In all fairness, Evansville Slew has a few crops jump on Sweetsouthernsaint. I think Sweetsouthernsaint is just going to improve, numbers-wise, from here on out. And Evansville Slew is probably going to decrease with him move to OK.

[Rokeby Forever]

I think Sweetsouthernsaint is just going to improve, numbers-wise, from here on out. And Evansville Slew is probably going to decrease with him move to OK.

Evansville Slew 2 year olds of 2007:
47 total foals
11 starters
5 winners
2 SWs
$5,063 average/start

Sweetsouthernsaint 2 year olds of 2007:
25 total foals
5 starters
1 winner
0 SWs
$1,552 average/start

Must be nice to be blonde.

[hpkingjr]

One of my all time favorite movies is the Flim Flam Man starring George C. Scott. It was filmed in KY in the bluegrass area around Harrodsburg.
My favorite line from the movie occurs when George C. Scott is concluding the sale of moonshine to a greedy shop keeper. The shop keeper is adding up the total due(and is about to be skinned) and George says innocently: "You figure much too rapidly for me."

LIFE TIME 2 YEAR OLD STARTERS FOR EVANSVILLE SLEW 104 (30%)
LIFE TIME 2 YEAR OLD STARTERS FOR SWEETSOUTHERNSAINT 84 (44%)

LIFE TIME 2 YEAR OLD WINNERS FOR EVANSVILLE SLEW 45 (13%)
LIFE TIME 2 YEAR OLD WINNERS FOR SWEETSOUTHERNSAINT 32 (17%)

LIFE TIME 2 YEAR OLD AVERAGE EARNING PER START FOR EVANSVILLE SLEW $3,445.00
LIFE TIME 2 YEAR OLD AVERAGE EARNING PER START FOR SWEETSOUTHERNSAINT $2,977.00

Let us see what happens by the end of the year.

[Rokeby Forever]

My good man, Hpking,

I was simply showing our dearly beloved Maven that the trend is NOT reversing. Evansville Slew was never a sire of early horses, and yet, as time is going by, he's still outperforming Sweetsouthernsaint in every possible stallion stat.

Sweetsouthernsaint is the biggest one hit wonder with Sweetnorthernsaint since Right Said Fred sang, "I'm Too Sexy." He couldn't carry Evansville Slew's bridle.

[halo]

Using Blood Horse Stallion Statistics thru last year, so we have complete years.

Evansville Slew has 8 crops of racing age, with 284 foals.

Sweetsouthernsaint has 3 crops with 163 foals.

Evansville Slew has a 1.30 AEI, .95 CI

SSS has a 1.52 AEI, 1.03 CI

Lets talk about one shot wonders. Evansville Slew has....March Magic, very nice Grade 2 winning filly. And....Rancour...winner of the Canadian Grade 3 Speed to Spare Hd.......and what else? Roi Charmant, not a SW but grade 2 placed. What else qualifies him NOT be be called a one shot wonder, after 8 crops of foals and 284 foals?

Sweetsouthernsaint has Grade 2 winning, Grade 1 placed Sweetnorthernsaint, stakes winning and Grade 1 placed Better Than Bonds, stakes winning and Grade 1 placed General John B, after 3 crops and 163 foals.

Okay, lets see the highlights so far for 2007. Evansville Slew has...the winner of the Northern LIghts Futurity, the winner of the $45,000 Assiniboia Chantilly Stakes. Several stakes winners and stakes placed horses, tho Im not sure why the CTBA Lassie Stakes is showing blacktype with $25,000 added.

Sweetsouthernsaint has this year Saint Paul, 3rd in the Grade 2 Robert E. Lewis S. at Santa Anita, Sweetnorthernsaint and Better Than Bonds both have won additional stakes this year, 5 other stakes placed horses.

Both have identical 10% stakes winners and stakes placed horses from foals.

And thru 2007, Evansville Slew has 94 runners, 43 winners, earnings of $1,359,608. SSS has 81 runners, 35 winners, earnings of $1,475,963.

As far as Evansville Slew outperfoming SSS in every statistic, perhaps in your strange little world he is. I think the figures tell a different story.

[Rokeby Forever]

Sweetsouthernsaint stands for 40% more than does Evansville Slew. ($2,500 vs $3,500). Sweetsouthernsaint is NOT outperforming Evansville Slew by 40% in ANY category you can name - so Evansville Slew is clearly the BEST value in America....which was the subject of this argument. Plus, Evansville Slew's books of mares are 8% weaker than Sweetsouthernsaint's (0.95 CI vs 1.03 CI). A mare with a 1.03 CI might be the strongest mare that Evansville Slew gets!

Evansville Slew is stuck in Oklahoma - where do you expect his foals to race? Sweetsouthernsaint is in Florida...giving his foals access to better tracks and purses. Plus, the O'Farrells have access to many more mares that nick better to Sweetsouthernsaint than the local backyard bred stiffs that Evansville Slew has to hop up behind in Oklahoma - most wear a straw hat with a daisy sticking out of the top. And, even with those mares, on any comparative level, Evansville Slew outperforms Sweetsouthernsaint Dollar for Dollar.

Do you want proof? Of Sweetsouthernsaint's leading nine runners in 2007, those runners have broodmare sires like Waquoit, Gone West, and Dynaformer. Evansville Slew's top nine runners in 2007 have broodmare sires like Beau's Eagle, Wild Zone, Last Trick, Black Claret, and Hard Work. Can you tell me who Black Claret, Last Trick, and Wild Zone are (were) without looking?