Is there a more worthless Grade 1 then the Kentucky Derby?

[LaTroienne]

lol, no I didn't maven, you are saying I said that

all I said was the queen's plate is more REVELANT to breeding success than the kentucky derby is.

How is that so? I'm just curious, but I often find that Derby winning stallions have higher quality mares bred to them than Queens' Plate winners and have better results.

[Maven]

# 2000 - Yonaguska and City Zip (in a dead heat) (Monarchos) Monarchos stood for more and had similar peds to these two
# 1999 - High Yield (Fusaichi Pegasus) Fupeg stood for more and had a similar ped

I don't think that's true. Yonaguska is by a Nasrullah-liner out of a Mr. Prospector line mare. Monarchos is by a Ribot-liner out of a Northern Dancer-line mare. City Zip is by a Mr. Prospector-liner out of an In Reality-line mare.

In contrast, High Yield was ND on top w/ Mr. P (and more ND) on the bottom; FuPeg was Mr. P on the top with ND on the bottom.

I wasn't talking about the same lines, but similar pedigrees in terms of commercial appeal.

Yonaguska was by a young stallion who was off to a promising start and presented speed to breeders. Monarchos was by a young stallion who offered the same. They were both in the same fee bracket.

And High Yield was by the new envogue sire of sires Storm Cat, while Fupeg was by the most recently acclaimed sire of sires, Mr. P. And as you pointed out, similar peds, just reversed.

Again, I was comparing pedigrees on commercial factors, not sire lines. Sorry, thought that was clear. But this thread has been jumping around quite a bit.

[Foggytrip]

Maimonides probably wont run as a three year old.

Maven, I recommend a threeway

[kimberley mine]

Your second "most important" race is the Queen's Plate-- Here are the colts who have had foals to race in the immediate past or present (not counting the filly winners)--

Sound Reason
Regal Embrace
Steady Growth
Driving Home
Fiddle Dancer Boy
Son of Briactic
Bompago
Key to the Moon
La Lorgnette
Golden Choice
Market Control
Regal Intention
With Approval
Izvestia
Alydeed
Peteski
Basqueian
Regal Discovery
Victor Cooley
Awesome Again
Archers Bay
Woodcarver

So here's my question to you... with the winners laid out in front of your eyes, how can you say that the BC Classic and the Queen's Plate has had more success in producing top stallions? Or that their winners should be looked upon more favorably than that year's Derby winner? Or are you going on the exploit of Awesome Again alone, since we all know he's a favorite of yours?

Out of fairness to the Queens Plate winners:

*Izvestia and Woodcarver died on the track.
*Bompago, Driving Home, Victor Cooley and Basqueian are geldings.
*Market Control, Key to the Moon, and Archers Bay all died young (4 crops or fewer). Key to the Moon died during his second breeding season.
*Hawk Wing would probably not appreciate you calling his dam La Lorgnette a colt.

Of the remaining 11 horses:

Sound Reason was exported to New Zealand at the end of his racing career where he did a good job at stud. He sired 9 group winners and several other listed winners, including a New Zealand Oaks winner and 2 Gr-1 winners in Australia.

Steady Growth was a very useful sire of hard-knockers in Canada.

With Approval is an excellent (and underrated) stallion. He never caught on in the US as his pedigree was not fashionable. Throwing classy distance turf horses didn't help him in the market. The owner of Lanwades Stud in England pulled off a real coup when she bought him.

Awesome Again has been a force to reckon with at stud. I think he's severely overpriced regarding his fee, but there is no denying that he passes on both brilliant speed AND class (and soundness issues). He's getting 8% SW from starters and 80% of his SW are graded, so when they do run they run big.

I'd say that 4 good stallions out of 11 is doing quite well. That's about the same percentage as the Kentucky Derby.

[kimberley mine]

On the subject of Queen's Plate winners--and BC and KY Derby winners--the ones who got the best OPPORTUNITY at stud were the ones who did more than just a KY Derby/Queen's Plate/BC win. Peteski, Alydeed, Awesome Again, and With Approval all did a lot more than just win the Queen's Plate.

[Rokeby Forever]

Northern Dancer won the Queen's Plate...he had a pretty good stud career.

I'd argue that Northern Dancer wasn't any better or worse than the horse that won the KY Derby that year. LOL!

[Maven]

Good call, Kimberley mine. I did tell Rok via pm last night With Approval was my favorite living stallion. Wonderful horse.

With that said, although I do like Alydeed some, the rest have been less than exciting. And a lot has to do with the oppurtunities given, which leads into my point that the Queen's Plate has no where NEAR the "sire clout" that the Derby has. Outside of Canada, very few care if the horse accomplished nothing stateside.

[Rokeby Forever]

Maven - I thought I was your favorite living stallion! Grrr!!!!!

The Queen's Plate is ungraded...so it isn't even a breeders' race.

[parsixfarms]

If we're looking at "stallion-making" races, it would be tough to match the Florida Derby. Over the past 20 years, its winners have included the following: Unbridled, Unbridled's Song, Holy Bull, Thunder Gulch, Brian's Time, Cape Town and Harlan's Holiday.

[Sir Barton]

I met a guy from the Woodbine racing office at Siros opening weekend at Saratoga. He was really down on the Queens plate and their triple crown, I actually found myself defending the plate and their TC to him. In the end the Derby is going to put you around Lexington with the highest stud fee they can get for your pedigree until the novelty wears off or your sold to the highest bidders outside of the bluegrass, no other race in North America can guarantee that. Responding to an earlier post Pleasantly Perfect is a son of Pleasant Colony not Tap.