Pioneering

Derby2004 · Postby **Derby2004** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 4:04 pm

Is it just me or is this guy a really great value? At 3500 and with the kind of runners he gets, plus his future as a broodmare sire, you really cant lose with him. He of course has Behaving Badly who is a top Distaff mare now and looks to be seeking Eclipse honors. Here are his numbers:

347 foals, 250 starters, 182 winners, 21 SWs and 19 SHs with average earnings per starter at $54,829 with a 1.49 AEI compared to a 1.38 CI. Plus he gets very durable runners. His two year olds are averaging $60k at the sales. And all of this from a $3500 stallion. Very comparable to Slew City Slew.The only thing missing is a top handicap horse for Pioneering.

LSB · Postby **LSB** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 4:13 pm

If you're breeding to race, there's a lot to like about Pioneering at that price. Unfortunately if you're breeding to sell, his yearling average last year was $8,800 and his filly average was well below his stud fee.

CA Michael · Postby **CA Michael** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 6:52 pm

I've often thought of using Pioneering on a Storm Cat line mare to inbreed to Terlingua. Finding the right types would be important, though. I'd want a pretty durable race mare whose wheels were set on properly. I've seen this done a few times with good results. In fact, there's a son of the relatively obscure WHEATON (a son of Terlingua, who is out of Crimson Saint) who also carries Crimson Saint on his damside who is running well now in stakes. His name is Desert Wheat and his pedigree illustrates how an inexpensive mare can be moved way up by inbreeding to the dominant female in her family.

Sam · Postby **Sam** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 8:22 pm

CA Michael wrote:I've often thought of using Pioneering on a Storm Cat line mare to inbreed to Terlingua.

Two words Michael ... Storm Boot. The only thing that would bug me about it would be the 2x4 Mr. Prospector. 77% starters, 61% winners.

Another to think of might be Stormy Atlantic. You'd also be picking up a second line of Myrtlewood by doing that.

MAYBE Devon Lane and then watch the Van Nistelroy.

Stallion Production Index on all of them (except VN), the fillies are about 20 points higher than colts and they all seem to be averaging 5.5 starts a year.

CA Michael · Postby **CA Michael** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 9:31 pm

Not a bad idea, Sam. Both Storm Boot and Stormy Atlantic have made a name for themselves with only average quality mares.

kimberley mine · Postby **kimberley mine** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 8:50 am

If you like that family, try mares by Pancho Villa (full to Terlingua) or Royal Academy.

pembroke · Postby **pembroke** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 9:43 am

A friend of mine has a mare for sale that is by The Names Jimmy x Encino who is out of Crimson Saint. The mares dam is Crimson Cashmere x Mt. Livermore and the second dam is Mirasol by Secretariat. Three crosses to Crimson Saint in this mare, plus the Secretariat, might make a very interesting cross on Pioneering!

henthorn · Postby **henthorn** » Sat Jul 08, 2006 1:19 pm

Pioneering is a son of Mr. Prospector out of Storm Cat's dam Terlingua. He is a refined, smaller horse with good balance and a nice mover. I've considered breeding him to race with one of my larger mares.

fastappy · Postby **fastappy** » Fri Aug 11, 2006 10:44 pm

[quote="henthorn"]Pioneering is a son of Mr. Prospector out of Storm Cat's dam Terlingua. He is a refined, smaller horse with good balance and a nice mover. I've considered breeding him to race with one of my larger mares.[/quote]

He does look refined on his still photo [b]http://www.equinevision.com/delivery/index.cfm?fuseaction=detail&delivery_token=rWJ6j8pu2g&horse_number=1215[/b]

... but at 16H I would not consider him small. According to the Jockey Club stats, he only bred 33 mare in 2004 & 34 mares in 2005. His stats look very good with 6% stakes winners from foals of racing age & 5% stakes placed, and $55k lifetime avg per starter.

I initially guessed that his poor showing in the sales ring (accounts for his low fee) and the fact the "Behaving Badly" is his leading money earner with $615K, with current leading earners being stakes winners from venues like Puerto Rico, Mexico, and Oregon, he may not be producing enough significant stakes horses by Kentucky standards.

Personally I still like what I see as his as his AEI is 1.49 vs CI 1.38 & 73% starters from foals of R/A & 16% wins from starts, etc.

He does not appear to be an outstanding physical specimen but he is royally bred & is getting the job done (numbers wise) despite having a less than stellar race career.

Does anyone have any knowledge of any other issues such as fertility or breeding issues?

CA Michael · Postby **CA Michael** » Sat Aug 12, 2006 8:24 am

I was part of a small group who tried to buy Pioneering a few months ago, and can attest that his fertility statistics are just fine. Just as we were close to finalizing the deal, Behaving Badly won a Grade 1 and his price took off. I'm sure that wherever he stands in 2007 his stud fee will rise to at least $5,000, perhaps $7,500.

fastappy · Postby **fastappy** » Sun Aug 13, 2006 12:24 am

[quote="CA Michael"]I was part of a small group who tried to buy Pioneering a few months ago, and can attest that his fertility statistics are just fine. Just as we were close to finalizing the deal, Behaving Badly won a Grade 1 and his price took off. I'm sure that wherever he stands in 2007 his stud fee will rise to at least $5,000, perhaps $7,500.[/quote]

Thanks for the info! Any thoughts on why he was getting such small books with a low fee?

CA Michael · Postby **CA Michael** » Sun Aug 13, 2006 8:41 am

In Kentucky, Pioneering is a pretty small fish in a very large pond. Although his numbers are solid, they aren't spectacular, so breeders looking for stallions in that price range often prefer to take a chance on a younger, unproven horse. As mentioned, his sales averages aren't impressive, but this is fairly common among stallions who are popular with breeders who race their own. The better ones just don't get to market as often.

I hope your new horse is doing well for you!

fastappy · Postby **fastappy** » Sun Aug 13, 2006 9:26 am

[quote="CA Michael"]In Kentucky, Pioneering is a pretty small fish in a very large pond. Although his numbers are solid, they aren't spectacular, so breeders looking for stallions in that price range often prefer to take a chance on a younger, unproven horse. As mentioned, his sales averages aren't impressive, but this is fairly common among stallions who are popular with breeders who race their own. The better ones just don't get to market as often.

I hope your new horse is doing well for you![/quote]

Yeah, It seems like that's what happened to Slew City Slew up until a year ago, he was flying under the radar. Thats to our advantage (small breeders) when you breed to run. Unfortunately, in California we lost Lord Carson (probably the best son of Carson City), Richly Blended, & Fargo. We're lacking a good source of Mr. P line studs.

Thisnearlywasmine, is doing great. We bred 26 mares, which is good for a small family operation. 18 winners from 20 starters! I need some black type runners to seal the deal.