Kissin Kris to CA

[UmmYeah]

http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/todaysnews/newsview.asp?recno=66578&subsec=6

Thoughts?

[Sam]

Mistake. HUGE mistake. He doesn't fit the mare population. Kris S. has already had two other 'name' sons try the CA market and move on after less than 5 years (Prized and You And I).. I don't see it being any different with Kissin Kris.

Kind of had a feeling this was coming when I saw Arnold had sold Evansville Slew.

I'm distraught.

[ak1]

From all accounts that I have seen here and other places, Evansville Slew seems like the kind of stallion you'd want to bolster your roster....solid breed to race stallion with demand from middle market breeders. I don't imagine he had books of 100plus mares, but I'd guess he has been a solid money maker. Why would you sell?

Wouldn't Kissin Kris make better sense in PA or elsewhere in MidAtlantic where steeplechase breeders could take advantage too?

[Sam]

Why would you sell?

Doug Arnold is an admited "Horse Dealer" and has said that every horse on his farm is always for sale.

Wouldn't Kissin Kris make better sense in PA or elsewhere in MidAtlantic where steeplechase breeders could take advantage too?

It's a thought but he really doesn't have great grass numbers. He'd have been better off going back to Florida.

[Mahubah]

I'd second that. He had a solid enugh record as a breed-to-race sire here.

[Diane]

Think Tommy Town vs Pepper Oaks
Old Topper +Kissin Kris vs Swiss Yodeler + Trail City
Plus TT has a few mares that might do well with KK, St Rajas and Valdastar for example not to mention all the Flying Continental mares in this state.
It might not be as bad as you think Sam. TT is a gorgeous facility, has green pastures + wonderful weather

[Sam]

not to mention all the Flying Continental mares in this state.

That may be the ONLY thing that keeps him in the state longer than Prized and You And I. At least he did actually manage to hit to the Flying Paster line and get two stakes horses/$300k+ earners out of them.

double checking... there's 6 of them from 2 mares -- all have started/won and all but one of them have earned more than $35k. Collectively, the 6 have average earnings of $212k per horse (Hasty Kris' $650k helps, but so does Juliet's Kiss' $300k).

You And I also has 6 from Flying Paster mares (one from Hasty Kris' dam) -- 4 starters/approx $135k AE per horse.

Prized had 9 -- 8 starters/about $54k AE per horse.

Guess I wouldn't hesitate much to take a Flying Continental mare to him... but that's about the only CA line I'd have much faith in.

Afterthought... Sweet Catomine's dam is the same Kris S. over Gummo cross.

[suzyd]

Tommy Town is also going to stand Supah Blitz for $2500.

[Diane]

Sam,
What do ya think of this Ca filly for KK?
Precocious Rene for 5k tag at FP yesterday.

[Sam]

Sam,
What do ya think of this Ca filly for KK?
Precocious Rene for 5k tag at FP yesterday.

I wouldn't go so far as to say he LIKES the family.. but he's had some success with it. She's a half to a $67k earner of his and from the same family as Kiss A Native (Her dam and his dam are half sibs out of one of Franks better mares -- Monique Rene -- who is also the second dam of Yes It's True through Clever Monique)

He's had half a dozen or so foals from that family (Either from Monique Rene, her daughters or their daughters.. that's Franks family mare for 3 generations) with various levels of success.

Precocity is the stumbling block. He bothers me some. KKris has exactly one foal with Tom Rolfe as the broodie line.. and she's an 0 for lifer (8 starts). He has 15 foals total that carry Hoist The Flag/Tom Rolfe somewhere in the pedigree (mostly through daughters of Notebook)... and they aren't much to talk about. The Kris S. line as a whole doesn't seem to like mares carrying Tom Rolfe.

It's a toss up.. KKris does okay with the family, but he does NOT like Tom Rolfe. I wouldn't recommend against it, but I wouldn't be overly enthusiastic about it either.

Half sibling to Precocious Rene:

LIVELY KISSER (USA) b H 1999 by Kissin Kris o/o Lively Rene 33-5-7-4 $67,654

Half siblings to Lively Rene:

KISSIN RENE (USA) dkb/br F 1997 by Kissin Kris o/o Monique Rene 6-1-0-0 $7,500

Foals from Monique Rene daughters:

KISS A NATIVE (USA) b G 1997 by Kissin Kris o/o Ronique 40-14-5-3 $1,109,021 (Grade 2 winner)

AKISSISJUSTAKISS (USA) b H 1999 by Kissin Kris o/o Ronique Unraced

UNIQUE RONIQUE (USA) dkb/br G 2001 by Kissin Kris o/o Ronique 25-1-3-1 $18,930

KISSINIQUE (USA) dkb/br M 2002 by Kissin Kris o/o Ronique 6-0-0-0 $1,080

MEXICAN KISS (USA) b M 2003 by Kissin Kris o/o Ronique Unraced

WALKINFORKISSES (USA) dkb/br M 2002 by Kissin Kris o/o Walk Away Rene 19-1-3-3 $25,995

[fastappy]

I would think with all the Storm Cat line sires, and mares, a Roberto (H2R) line stallion would do very well in California. Aside from Sweet Catomine, Storm Cat has stakes winners from Roberto and son's Silver Hawk, Lear Fan, and Giants Causeway's 2nd dam is by Roberto.

On the local level I observed some minor (claiming) winners on the Kris S. x Storm Cat cross. One was an Exploit w/2nd dam by Kris S and another was a Comic Strip crossed on a Tabasco Cat mare.

Trail City has apparently moved as I no longer see him on the Pepper Oaks "E Nicks" portion of the site. I know they have re-aligned their program and will only stand Swiss Yodeler (I don't know about "Strive").

Graded Stakes winner Untouched Talent (Storm Cat - 2nd Dam by Red Ransom) is/was owned by TT.

[Sam]

I would think with all the Storm Cat line sires, and mares, a Roberto (H2R) line stallion would do very well in California. Aside from Sweet Catomine, Storm Cat has stakes winners from Roberto and son's Silver Hawk, Lear Fan, and Giants Causeway's 2nd dam is by Roberto.

Some other Roberto might, KKris apparently does not seem to care much for any kind of ND mare. Only 6 of his top 30 earners (and none of them very high) are from that broodmare sireline. He wants H2R, Bold Ruler and RAN. And the second half of your statement is about Storm Cat over Roberto, not Roberto over Storm Cat... we all know what works one way doesn't always work in reverse.

[fastappy]

[quote="Sam"][quote="fastappy"]I would think with all the Storm Cat line sires, and mares, a Roberto (H2R) line stallion would do very well in California. Aside from Sweet Catomine, Storm Cat has stakes winners from Roberto and son's Silver Hawk, Lear Fan, and Giants Causeway's 2nd dam is by Roberto. [/quote]
Some other Roberto might, KKris apparently does not seem to care much for any kind of ND mare. Only 6 of his top 30 earners (and none of them very high) are from that broodmare sireline. He wants H2R, Bold Ruler and RAN. And the second half of your statement is about Storm Cat over Roberto, not Roberto over Storm Cat... we all know what works one way doesn't always work in reverse.[/quote]

Sounds plausible but, I don't see where he was bred to any Storm Cat line mares, in the pedigree data base. Also though Werk does not give you a nick on the reverse breeding, Werk does give an A+ rating on Red Ransom (Roberto) over Storm Bird (Storm Cat).

Bottom line is the cross (Roberto line broodmares X Storm Cat & Sons) has worked very well in many circumstances and warrants further consideration in the reverse.

[Sam]

Also though Werk does not give you a nick on the reverse breeding, Werk does give an A+ rating on Red Ransom (Roberto) over Storm Bird (Storm Cat).

I'd not even bothered to look at the nick until just now. I know Kissin Kris' progeny too well to bother with it.

Red Ransom is not Kris S. so the nick isn't the same.

Kris S. over Storm Bird (does not nick to Storm Cat) is a B+ 149%

Storm Cat over Kris S. is an A+ 645%

Most of that is the old man himself with a little help from Prized and Arch. It's definitely not KKris contributing to those scores.

Kissin Kris HAS establised his own nick to Northern Dancer: Kissin Kris to Northern Dancer is a B 87% (those would be your Bartok mares). You can pretty much blame Kris Havingfunnow and Kiss An Angel for that nick (Dance Bid and Herat respectively). They're both stakes placed -- but neither of them made more than $280k. Good enough, but not something that would make me think KKris is going to relish a bunch of ND line mares (especially not ones from Storm Cat).

eta

I'm still adding thoughts... there's two other Kissin Kris/ND nick horses -- Kissin Saint (placed in the Wood Memorial) and Kiss a Miss (placed in the Arlington Oaks) who don't contribute to that nick because they aren't stakes winners. Neither of them broke $300k either.

For comparison, the Kris S. branch doesn't like the Vice Regent branch at all -- so Deputy Ministers mares are out.

Kris S. to Sadler's Wells is a C+ -- Not that there are many El Prado mares in CA.

Kris S. to Nijinsky is also a C+, as is Kris S. to The Minstrel

Honestly, the only ND branches the Kris S. sireline seems to tolerate well are Nureyev (good news for all those Unusual Heat mares) Green Dancer (not sure where you get a GD mare in CA) and Danzig (ditto.. I know there's a Danzig stallion or two in CA.. just blanking on who they are). Those are all mid-range A.

Of course, that's all near meaningless if there isn't a good enough female family behind them.

So.. I guess what we're talking about so far is: Definitely Flying Paster mares.. possibly Bartok or Unusual Heat mares.

[tbrace]

I agree, big mistake. Look at this dudes AEI v CI: Lowers his mares by about half. Also look at number of mare's bred: very small group.

Should be going to Idaho or Alaska or somewhere.