Claiborne Farm visit

[henthorn]

I didn't take good notes, but reviewed some of the gents at Claiborne this week, most of whom I'd seen before.

Arch is more powerful and better conformed than I had recalled, and is probably worth his stud fee raise.

During looked like he needs to balance out a little, seems front-heavy to me with a short butt and long neck. I suspect he'll look better after he settles in to stallion duty.

First Samurai is priced at $40K for his first year, a little pricey to my way of thinking. He looks pretty ordinary to me for that price, but no real flaws noted, mid-sized and well-balanced.

Eddington is a big framed son of Unbridled with good conformation, should make nice sales babies, and later racehorses.

Flatter is still just as bow-legged as I remembered, but I'm told he doesn't seem to transmit this flaw to his foals, and they are quite nice.

Strong Hope is at a $30K fee, a son of Grand Slam who really is impressive. Big frame, lots of bone, balance, attitude. Nice walk and legs. He is inbred to Northern Dancer and Sex Appeal, with Halo in the mix.

I didn't see the rest, but did note that a new stallion named War Front has retired this week to stud, a son of Danzig.

Monarchos fee has been lowered to $7500.

[FOS]

hi henthorn

Arch is more powerful and better conformed than I had recalled, and is probably worth his stud fee raise.

Powerful, yes he is...but to my way of thinking he is VERY thick and heavy-bodied. That said...I suggest that anyone that considers using Arch...might be wise to select a racier more athletic type than he is, unless they are intending to breed an incredible hulk-like foal.

First Samurai is priced at $40K for his first year, a little pricey to my way of thinking.

A little pricey? You're being too kind .

(First Samurai) looks pretty ordinary to me for that price, but no real flaws noted, mid-sized and well-balanced.

No real flaws? An "ordinary" (your word) looking stallion by Giant's Causeway...that's concern-enough (if not flaw-enough) for me.

Eddington is a big framed son of Unbridled with good conformation, should make nice sales babies, and later racehorses.

Eddington is one grand looking horse.

Flatter is still just as bow-legged as I remembered, but I'm told he doesn't seem to transmit this flaw to his foals, and they are quite nice.

I don't expect that Flatter will turn the thoroughbred world on its ear. Ho hum.

Strong Hope is at a $30K fee, a son of Grand Slam who really is impressive. Big frame, lots of bone, balance, attitude. Nice walk and legs.

I am on record that the WORST foal I have seen thus far in 2006 is by Strong Hope. It was (for starters) a low in the back...bow-legged...peanut. Awful would be an understatement.

Monarchos fee has been lowered to $7500.

It would not surprise me if there is an effort to move him ASAP.

Best to you.

Respectfully

[Tomtheterrapin]

FOS, personally I am not a big Strong Hope fan, but what you wrote about him is very misleading. You are leaving the impression to the average breeder on here that all of Strong Hope's foals are awful and you should stay away from him because you saw one bad foal by him.

When you leave comments like that, maybe you should comment about some other foals by him that you've seen. He must have some pretty good ones out there. So far in the Keeneland sale, through 8 days, he has sold 10 colts for an average of $119,000 ($10,000 the lowest & $280,000 the highest) and his 5 fillies have sold for an average of $148,000 ($75,000 the lowest & $300,000 the highest). His total average is $128,666 for the 8 days so far. I do not think he has any more horses going through the ring.

That's not too shabby. So, he had one bad foal, every single stallion has a few that are small, bow-legged, back at the knee, long pasterns, etc, and it can just as easily be the mare's fault.

[FOS]

hi tomtheterrapin

FOS, personally I am not a big Strong Hope fan, but what you wrote about him is very misleading.

Misleading? I've seen hundreds upon hundreds of foals this year and I stand by what I said...every word, EXACTLY as originally submitted. If you notice, I used the words FOAL and IT (in response to henthorn)...FOAL and IT, as in singular, I have now bolded foal and it (in the quote below).

Strong Hope is at a $30K fee, a son of Grand Slam who really is impressive. Big frame, lots of bone, balance, attitude. Nice walk and legs.

I am on record that the WORST foal I have seen thus far in 2006 is by Strong Hope. It was (for starters) a low in the back...bow-legged...peanut. Awful would be an understatement.

Again...if you notice above...the word FOAL and IT are singular...not plural.

You are leaving the impression to the average breeder on here that all of Strong Hope's foals are awful and you should stay away from him because you saw one bad foal by him.

Please point out to me where I said or left the impression that "...all of Strong Hope's foals are awful and you should stay away from him...". Those are your words NOT MINE.

When you leave comments like that, maybe you should comment about some other foals by him that you've seen.

My comment was about the worst foal I've seen thus far in 2006. I know what I saw...and expressed what I saw.

He must have some pretty good ones out there.

He very well might...but ALL that I commented on is the one that I saw, and how awful it was. You can rest assured it was as described.

So, he had one bad foal...

I don't know how many "bad foals[s]" (your words) Strong Hope sired...but if you are using sales results to draw conclusions, I might ask (for starters) about the $10,000 foal (by Strong Hope) that you referenced.

Best to you.

Respectfully

[Foggytrip]

The one bad foal will probably outrun all the good ones

[Tomtheterrapin]

FOS, you are one of the most defensive people I ever seen (maybe I should say read). Basically I guess I should have asked you to clarify your statement, that a general statement about one FOAL, can blanket the entire stallion's produce population. I'm sure I'm not the only one that read your statement that way. Did you see other foals by Strong Hope and if so, what was your opinion of them?

I love when you quote other people, like you did with me, and use my EXACT words against me. It cracks me up, I feel like I'm reliving the Brady Bunch episode where Mike & Carol hold Greg to his "exact words." I think you got the point of what I was trying to say to you about how your words about one foal can be miscontrued, but no, you have to go on and on about how you were talking about ONE FOAL.

You have a lot of strong opinions about a lot of different stallions. Personally, I think you might be a stallion owner or at least a share holder for a stallion or two. I certainly haven't read all your posts (and I'm not about to), but in general I see a lot of negative things written by you. But that's how some people like to live their lives.

Would it be possible for you to share with all of us who are not nearly as smart as you, as to what stallions you are breeding to, or what stallions or shares of stallions you own, or what stallions you would breed to in various price ranges?

Lastly, you ask about Strong Hope's one $10,000 foal, you have to be kidding me. Once again: NEGATIVE. You are definitely a half-empty kind of guy, looking for the negative....forget about his $300,000 foal and his $240,000 foal, let's just talk about his $10,000 foal. Man, every stallion has bad foals, heck, I've seen Storm Cat's running in $5,000 claimers, does that make all of his foals poor? Yes, I know, I know, exact words, you never said all of Strong Hope's foals were poor, just the worst one on the planet that you've ever seen in 2006.

[FOS]

hi Tomtheterrapin

...in general I see a lot of negative things written by you.

I (as others often do) sometimes highlight strengths and weaknesses as I see them. Hopefully, by sharing honest opinions and/or experiences and/or information etc we might benefit. I hope that everyone has a positive experience with their thoroughbreds.

I am a proponent of breeders, buyers etc asking questions, doing their homework, evaluating etc and making selections that might best enhance their chances for success. Arguably, being prepared includes being aware of not just the positives...but also the negative[s] (your word).

Many on this forum are generous enough to participate and share their thoughts and insights etc and sometimes touch on strengths, weaknesses, positives and negatives (related to the topic at hand). We might glean something...we might not; we might agree...we might not.

Arguably one's instincts, impressions, decisions, selections and/or conclusions, etc are often dependant (at least to some extent) on the experience, knowledge and information etc that one has to draw from.

I appreciate and respect the honest opinions, knowledge and experiences etc that many share on the forum. That said...those that prefer to demean others and/or make personal attacks and/or mean spirited comments or the like...don't interest me at all.

Good luck in your thoroughbred endeavors.

Respectfully

[Tomtheterrapin]

You know FOS, I'm not even sure why I am wasting my time typing these futile words to you. I hate getting into p---ing contests with anyone, especially on a BB, because we are both just spinning our wheels.

I guess that calling you "defensive" and comparing you to Greg Brady made you feel like that was a "personal" and "mean spirited" attack, believe me, there was nothing mean spirited about it, it was an observation and a tiny attempt at some humor that I thought you might find at least a little bit funny.....I was definitely wrong. The observation is that I do find your posts to be somewhat defensive...I guess I am wrong about that too. Oh yea, I guess I shouldn't have said something to the effect of you being smarter than everyone on the board, that might have been a little bit mean sprited...sorry...I'm not terribly sorry, but I am sorry. I'm not terribly sorry because you come off on this board as someone who thinks he knows more than everyone else....so I guess I'm sorry I made that comment, but I'm not sorry that I feel that way about you.

One thing that bothers me is that you sign all your posts "respectively," but I really don't feel like you respect many people on this BB. You say you are stating the "truth," but in all honesty it is just your opinion, which doesn't make it truth or even fact, just your opinion. And in post after post that I have read of yours, you are the one who makes attacks. You slam horses and choices that people make quite regularly, which can often be taken as a very personal thing. You say that you don't respect people who make personal attacks, but unwittingly, you are making them everyday. It is starting to dawn on me what FOS stands for.

I do have to hand it to you though, you have a very politico way about yourself of making comments about horses without it seeming like you are directly coming out and slamming the horse. Strong Hope is a perfect example. You make a comment about one foal, that in many ways can be taken as a blanket description of his foals. But you can easily back pedal and say I was only talking about one foal....and yet you say you've seen thousands of foals and you couldn't come back and say anything positive about any of Strong Hope's other countless foals that you saw? Does any of this make sense to you or am I still spinning my wheels?

The funny thing is that in my earlier "mean spirited" post I posed some serious questions, which you chose to ignore....I'm guessing you ignored them because I am so mean spirited.

Good luck with your thoroughbred endeavors too.

[Heidilady]

FOS, personally I am not a big Strong Hope fan, but what you wrote about him is very misleading. You are leaving the impression to the average breeder on here that all of Strong Hope's foals are awful and you should stay away from him because you saw one bad foal by him.

When you leave comments like that, maybe you should comment about some other foals by him that you've seen.

You'll forgive me for not reading the last spiel in its entirety. I saw that there was a slap fight going on and dropped your last post to see the cause--to my surprise nothing FOS said qualifies as provocation and none of it was defensive until you put words in FOS's mouth. If you see one foal by stallion X and say 'this foal was pretty bad' that's the end of it. That foal in particular was bad. Doesn't imply anything about the rest of Strong Hope's foals. Considering how little FOS said about Strong Hope I'm surprised this argument flared up. All you gotta say is "ya never know, it might be the mare's fault" and let it go. The ranting that followed is completely uncalled for.

[Tomtheterrapin]

Don't worry Heidilady, I wont be coming back. Sometimes I get carried away with my, as you said, spiels (and I hope this will be my last spiel), and I'm sorry if I offended anyone. I must be a masochist to even read anything on these BB's, just like the one that used to be at Thoroughbred Times. So, I'm better off if I just stay off these things so I wont be offended when people write things.

FOS ticked me off because someone said they went to Claiborne and he/she commented about that stallions there. FOS then had a comment for every stallion and it struck me that very little of it was positive. Maybe you and others didn't take his comment about Strong Hope as a blanket attack against the stallion, but I did. FOS was very demonstrative in his reply in that he was writing about ONE FOAL, but in many cases it isn't what you do write it is what you don't write that gives off an impression. In the context he made the comment, if he would have then written something like, "one of Strong Hope's foals that I saw was the worst one I've seen in 2006, but I've seen some others that were nice individuals," then I wouldn't given his remark a second thought. Or even if he had went on to say that he saw a bunch of his foals and wasn't impressed, I, again wouldn't have given it a second thought. At least we would have had a context for his opinion.

The funny thing is, I don't even like Strong Hope as a stallion, but his comment really struck a chord with me. I guess I was the only one. Personally, I felt his comment was irresponsible and all I asked was for him to clarify what he said and he came back and seemed to me to be very defensive, throwing my own words in my face and so on.

You are right that this posting exchange has gotten out of hand, but if you look at my reply I did say that foal he saw could be the mare's fault and I wrote about how Strong Hope's foals are selling well. FOS made made no attempt to agree/disagree about the dam of the foal, and his one comment about how Strong Hope's foals are selling so well was about the one that sold for $10,000. How can that not be construed as being negative?

In closing, take the comments & advice of other posters with a grain of salt. You have no idea of what their background is, if they are even remotely qualified to make such comments and you don't know what their motivation is, not everyone is motivated by their love of their fellow man.

That said, good luck to everyone on this BB and try not to take everything on here so literal and seriously, like I have.

[freshman]

Hey Tom, please don't let this exchange turn you off from this board. I have a feeling that you could bring lot to this forum.

I can very well see your points on FOS's posts, just as I can see FOS's responses...and BOTH are valuable. Yours is a very important one, too. Please consider it.