War Emblem finally got one

[Heidilady]

He's got his first winner. Clan Emblem.

http://breeding.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=36570

[Sam]

You say 'finally got one' as if he's had a bunch of starters and no one's been able to win.

This is one of only two foals in his first crop which are just now 2yo.

Getting winners isn't likely to be his problem, getting foals is.

[Barbaro06]

His case is a strange one, that's for sure. I've heard of shy breeders, but he takes the cake. He just doesn't want to do it. I know they have tried switching the mares on him, but it doesn't work all the time. Any updates on his prognosis?

[freshman]

He is a strange one. I'd assume that they have tried everything to, er, facilitate his breeding.

Usually such a low interest would indicate a hormonal or other endrocrine prob, but these can usually be overcome with drug therapy. Hmmm.

He must be a real head case. I've heard of several TB stallions that proved infertile, but has anyone heard of ones that just would not breed? Anyone know if this has ever been overcome?

[reese]

He is a strange one. I'd assume that they have tried everything to, er, facilitate his breeding.

Usually such a low interest would indicate a hormonal or other endrocrine prob, but these can usually be overcome with drug therapy. Hmmm.

He must be a real head case. I've heard of several TB stallions that proved infertile, but has anyone heard of ones that just would not breed? Anyone know if this has ever been overcome?

I think War Emblem is smart. The Japanese are the equivalent of the "chicken factory". In his first year at stud, the farm had 300 mares lined up for War Emblem...

I don't think stallions last long in Japan. How many 20 yr old stallions do they have there?
They kept trying to breed SS until he refused to get up, and finally died from that leg infectiion. End Sweep died from "broken withers..he was probably exhausted, and Coronado's Quest had "a heart attack"...probably after breeding 200 mares in his first month there...

Kudos to War Emblem. I hope he continues to refuse to breed like a "rabbit".

[Heidilady]

You say 'finally got one' as if he's had a bunch of starters and no one's been able to win.

This is one of only two foals in his first crop which are just now 2yo.

Getting winners isn't likely to be his problem, getting foals is.

Uh don't put words in my mouth Sam. Finally got one meant exactly what I meant it to mean, both that he finally has a winner and foals period...see the 'unwillingness to breed' issues aren't exactly a secret and I'm certainly not unaware of them or stupid. He finally got [a winner]---I stand by that remark.

Geez didn't expect snarkiness from a simple sentence. If people think it meant he had lots of foals but was a lousy sire, they're morons.

[Sam]

Geez didn't expect snarkiness from a simple sentence. If people think it meant he had lots of foals but was a lousy sire, they're morons.

Yes, most people know he is a terribly shy breeder.. most people have forgotten how long he's been at stud, probably didn't know that he only had two foals in his first crop and that they are only just now 2yos. I doubt anyone would expect him to have "lots of foals" if they know he is a shy breeder, but most casual fans I know are surprised he has less than 10. If someone didn't know how many foals of racing age he has or can't remember exactly how long he's been at stud (I only know because he won the Derby the year I was working with Jack) your sentence easily gives the impression that he's been struggling to get winners as well as foals.

[Barbaro06]

Three hundred mares in his first year? Sheesh! I know most studs enjoy their jobs, but 300? Then we wonder why fertility declines or studs refuse to breed. Some of these stud farms are burning out stallions and mass producing horses like they are cars off an assembly line.

Call me old fashioned, but books of 80 mares would be enough in my mind. Let the ol' boy have his girls, but not so many to burn him out or make him sour on his job. And for pete's sake, let's have some quality! I know there is quality out there, but it seems lacking in quantity (and I am not saying breed 'em like rabbits either when I use the word).

I take it big books are fashionable because they bring in $$$ and there is always the hope some yearling from that sire will bring in more $$$.

Perhaps it is time War Emblem comes back to the States before he gets hurt...anyone know if there was a buyback clause with him?

[llbean]

His case is a strange one, that's for sure. I've heard of shy breeders, but he takes the cake. He just doesn't want to do it. I know they have tried switching the mares on him, but it doesn't work all the time. Any updates on his prognosis?

Hi Barbaro,

What it turned out to be was not so much a 100% "he didn't want to breed" as it was also at least partly a case of a stallion being very selective in what mares he wanted to breed to and I think they managed to get one crop of about 40 foals out of him by just exposing him to a bunch of mares per a day and then letting him go if the feeling/the mare moved him.

Its kind of funny cause you don't exactly expect that level of sophistication from a highly polygamous dumb animal like the horse. I really wonder if he'll make Human Breeders look stupid by turning out to be a better judge of Bloodline Affinities and/or Mare Quality than most Humans are...

And who is to say he won't be? After all, Horse Breeding was even more important to War Emblem's ancestors and the survival of his ancestral lines than it was to the ancestors of Humans (and probably that holds even for Humans from Horse Oriented Cultures and/or Bloodlines ala the Hancocks).

Of course two potential problems are that:

1. War Emblem comes from a line of domesticated horses and thus you'd have to go back a ways to find the ancestors who had any real measure of control over their own breeding so perhaps the ability to determine compatible and/or high quality genes in another horse have been lost in the TB in the same way that the Dodo lost the ability to fly in the absence of predators.

2. Truth be told, Humans have some cognitive resources lacking in the Horse and IF Human Breeders are presently showing wisdom in how they use these awesome mental powers, it could give them a huge advantage over Horses in determining the Quality and Compatability of a Mare relative to a Stallion (note I'm not even considering the possility that horses could improve their own breeds by culling the way Humans have improved said Horse Breeds as its utterly absurd and irrelavent to the point under consideration).

Anyway, for whateve reason he relapsed the year after the 40 foal crop according to this: http://breeding.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=34328 , which is very unfortunate (also mysterious, I would say)...

-llbena

[Nerd]

performance anxiety?

I think the most likely explanation is that he's just messed up, not expressing some subtly clever selection pattern.

I am under the impression that this horse has always been a little messed up in the head, based on that weird/fearful facial expression he always seemed to have and the way he raced, which I interpreted as stressed and insecure. Maybe he's having fear issues???

[madelyn]

This is a very interesting document. According to information in it, Thoroughbred fertility, etc., declines after about 40 mares...

http://people.upei.ca/lofstedt/opence/h ... ol.html#26

It also says the only way they could get a Standardbred stallion to service 200 mares was to use AI... wonder if that's how Ashford does it?

[Toccet02]

I am under the impression that this horse has always been a little messed up in the head

He's the only horse I ever saw blatantly and angrily bite a lead pony after a race . . .

[Tairaterces]

I am under the impression that this horse has always been a little messed up in the head

He's the only horse I ever saw blatantly and angrily bite a lead pony after a race . . .

WE is a very emotional horse . . . much like a human. He was probably so pent up after the race he couldn't contain himself and bit the pony.

I had a cat like that. I would pet him and he would be purring away content as ever and then his eyes would go wild and BAM he would bite. Funny thinking about that as Sparky had a lot of human qualities too.

Maybe he just doesn't like the Japanese dollies . . . .

[Sam]

Maybe he just doesn't like the Japanese dollies . . . .

There's a joke in there about WWII GIs and Japanese hookers, I'm sure of it.

(If you have to ask, you didn't have a relative serving in the pacific theatre)

[Lucy]

I am reminded of this (supposedly) real newspaper ad I saw in an e-mail:

"COWS, CALVES: NEVER BRED.
Also 1 gay bull for sale."