Pedigree Query

I haven't read much about this horse as breeding reports go - is anyone up to date on this horse and what kind of book he can look forward to in 2007?

With the Hail To Reason sire line going so strong, I really like this horse as a potentially good sire. He's a BIG horse (17h, I believe), and he had his share of soundness problems, but he was as good looking as they come and he's got a nice mix of speed (from Mr P on the damside) and stamina in his pedigree. I'm not sure if he's from what you would call a "sire family," but a lot of Hail To Reason line stallions aren't and they've done awfully well.

He looked bad and miserable when I first saw him last winter. He's filled out and grown up a lot in the last year and looks much better. His legs are a mess, though. I don't know if it's left over from the rigors of racing, or if they were always that ugly. Even in his conformation pic you can see a lot of filling in a couple of them. Based on some of the mares sold in foal to him, it looks like he got a decent book for his first season. Hopefully, it will be a better book in '07, since he retired pretty late in '05. I know Ernie Moody is supporting him and hopefully Madeleine Pickens is, too.

How can I put this... he's impressive looking, yet not very pretty conformationally. I know it sounds like strange, but thats the best way to describe him.

I think he's going to need a speedy, smallish type mare that is quite correct. When I was talking to Lane's End earlier in the year about a multiple stakes-placed very correct and fast Stravinsky mare, they were very heavy on pushing him, so I think they have the same idea on him with the type of mare he needs.

He's been supported well, but im going to have to hold out on him and let him prove me wrong. I love the Hail to Reason line, and its still making itsself relevant, but Kris S. is a worry. Arch is solid but in my opinion, that has more to do with the immense class of his female family than anything else.

I hope RHT gets it done, but I have my doubts.

Hi ASB....maybe you can help me understand.

Rock Hard Ten has speed in his pedigree and had plenty of speed, himself. Why do you think that he'd best be bred to a "speedy" type mare? I can understand breeding him to a smaller mare to offset his big size, but I don't think that Rock Hard Ten, like most sires from the Hail To Reason line, is going to be a sire of early speed type horses.

I can understand Lane's End's thinking...maybe by breeding him to some "speedy" mares, he can sire some early 2 year olds and get his stud career off to a fast start...but don't you think that Rock Hard Ten's strong suit will be siring horses that will want distance and turf? It seems to me that I'd want a mare with distance influences in her pedigree to go to Rock Hard Ten, since he already has speed in his family.

Yes, because "distance" and "turf" is what most American breeders want.

Speed wins races and when a stallion has his body and pedigree, it screams two turns and distance. He may have been pushed to be more precocious than he naturally would have wanted, but that doesnt mean that will carry on to his foals.

Its the same reason the best by Tiznow and Point Given are either out of fast mares, or by mares who were by speedier types. There's not much room for a true stayer on US tracks today, because speed horses are doing a better job staying when the true distance horses are just getting into gear... think Smarty Jones, Funnycide, etc.

Also, Kris S. is probably the best "versatile" Roberto blood in the world. His get do just as well on dirt as they do on turf. Just because RHT's dam did well on the turf, doesnt mean she actually had an overwhelmingly turf oriented pedigree... to the contrary in fact. It just goes to show how truly remarkable and versatile Mr. Prospector was/is.

And furthermore, until RHT can prove to be a reliable source of stakes winners, his only true use at the moment, is that of a young commercial stallion. He's a "name" horse who had a lot of potential and will cause many to look at his foals, but if the foals dont look the part, and look immature at the yearling sales, they're not going to sell well, especially being by a son of Kris S., who is an average at BEST sire of sires.

If they dont sell well, watch people jump ship almost immediately. Once that happens, everything from the quality of his book to the type of foals that hit the track will weaken considerably.

In this business 90% of stallions are failures. There's a lot of be weary about with any stallion, and RHT has a few variables that are big question marks. Sending a quality correct speed mare will be the best way to go, and its obvious Lane's End, who's job it is to get the best book they can for him, also is thinking along the same lines.

Just out of curiosity, what kind of mares would you like him to see? Trempolino mares? Him and those foals will be shipped out of Kentucky before he's given a fair shake. Speed makes the horse, and he'll need some imparted back into him. He was by no means slow, but he was a late developer and thats going to hurt him if not bred correctly.

Actually, I don't think the commercial breeder wants distance and turf...he wants a sire like Officer with lots of speed influences that can sire a lot of juvenile winners. Why do you think his stud fee has skyrocketed in 2007? Why has Johannesburg jumped to $65,000? He's got a lot of juvenile winners, but not too many have shown real quality - but as long as they race early, people will want them.

I think 90% of new sires fail because there's no patience in the commerical world. If a sire's foals don't develop until they're 4 years old, how many people are going to buy foals and give them time as opposed to buying a Johannesburg that can run much earlier?

Trempolino? Better than St Jovite, I guess. LOL! As far as what mares I'd look to breed to Rock Hard Ten, I would think something with Buckpasser blood. You can't knock the Hail To Reason/Buckpasser nick, and Rock Hard Ten is actually doubled to Hail To Reason by Tersa through her 2nd dam, Morning Calm.

Of sons of Roberto, I think you'd have to agree that Red Ransom and Dynaformer are very versatile, as well...Red Ransom offers more speed because he, himself, was a very fast horse, but both can sire a top Grade 1 turf or dirt horse at a mile or over.

ASB wrote:Kris S., who is an average at BEST sire of sires.

The number of sons at stud and the number of them with better than 70% starters (several of them have 80% or better) and 50% winners from foals belies that... but not by much. He pales in comparison to Storm Cat/Mr. Prospector/A.P. Indy but only because he doesn't have a break out son at stud. Comparatively speaking though, his ratio of sons who get runners versus those who don't is equal to or even better than those three.

He was an honest breed to race sire and so are most of his sons -- almost all of whom are appropriately priced and in the proper markets.

His real problem in getting sons that become sires is that few of them have strong female families that can be inbred to. RHT is only the second "name" son to go to son from a respectable female family and a noted Broodmare sire. Prior to RHT, his best sons come from broodmare sires like Danzig (Arch) and Dixieland Band (Adonis). I say "name" because while Adonis was a decent enough runner, he didn't have the recognition that Arch and RHT had.

The majority of Kris S. sons have dams and second dams by stallions either not truly known to American breeders like Ups/Nyangal (Broodie sire/maternal broodie sire of You And I and Serrazo) or met with lukewarm enthusiasm like My Dad George/*Petare (Broodie sire/maternal Broodie sire of the My Turbulent Miss boys) and Your Alibhai/First Landing (Broodie sire/maternal broodie sire of Kissin Kris). Yet even with those obscure lines, many of them make very good breed to race sires.

Arch is living up to his expectations (more or less) but Adonis' career was so mismanaged early on, I doubt he will ever really be able to recover.

Of the Robertos -- Dynaformer, Kris S., Red Ransom, Repriced -- I would unhesitatingly go to a Kris S. son above all others. There's more to making a stallion than his AEI/CI ratio. I'm more impressed with a stallion who gets more than 70% starters and 50% winners from foals, especially if he has 60% or better winners from starters. I'd rather have a racehorse than a sales ring stud. I'd like to see a stallion improve his mares, but knowing most of the Kris S. boys have CIs in the low 1.00, I don't spazz about their AEIs unless is drastically lower than their CIs.

When I finish my year end update, I'll throw up the starters, winners/foals, winners/starter stats for all his N. American based sons with more than 50 foals of racing age.

Rokeby Forever wrote:Actually, I don't think the commercial breeder wants distance and turf....

Re-read what I wrote. I was being VERY sarcastic.

My whole point was re-inforced with what you said. For him and his progeny to compete in this market, you need to introduce more speed into him. Its that simple.

Sam wrote:

ASB wrote:Kris S., who is an average at BEST sire of sires.

The number of sons at stud and the number of them with better than 70% starters (several of them have 80% or better) and 50% winners from foals belies that... but not by much. He pales in comparison to Storm Cat/Mr. Prospector/A.P. Indy but only because he doesn't have a break out son at stud. Comparatively speaking though, his ratio of sons who get runners versus those who don't is equal to or even better than those three.

He was an honest breed to race sire and so are most of his sons -- almost all of whom are appropriately priced and in the proper markets.

His real problem in getting sons that become sires is that few of them have strong female families that can be inbred to. RHT is only the second "name" son to go to son from a respectable female family and a noted Broodmare sire. Prior to RHT, his best sons come from broodmare sires like Danzig (Arch) and Dixieland Band (Adonis). I say "name" because while Adonis was a decent enough runner, he didn't have the recognition that Arch and RHT had.

The majority of Kris S. sons have dams and second dams by stallions either not truly known to American breeders like Ups/Nyangal (Broodie sire/maternal broodie sire of You And I and Serrazo) or met with lukewarm enthusiasm like My Dad George/*Petare (Broodie sire/maternal Broodie sire of the My Turbulent Miss boys) and Your Alibhai/First Landing (Broodie sire/maternal broodie sire of Kissin Kris). Yet even with those obscure lines, many of them make very good breed to race sires.

Arch is living up to his expectations (more or less) but Adonis' career was so mismanaged early on, I doubt he will ever really be able to recover.

Of the Robertos -- Dynaformer, Kris S., Red Ransom, Repriced -- I would unhesitatingly go to a Kris S. son above all others. There's more to making a stallion than his AEI/CI ratio. I'm more impressed with a stallion who gets more than 70% starters and 50% winners from foals, especially if he has 60% or better winners from starters. I'd rather have a racehorse than a sales ring stud. I'd like to see a stallion improve his mares, but knowing most of the Kris S. boys have CIs in the low 1.00, I don't spazz about their AEIs unless is drastically lower than their CIs.

When I finish my year end update, I'll throw up the starters, winners/foals, winners/starter stats for all his N. American based sons with more than 50 foals of racing age.

Actually Sam, you're preaching to the choir. Kris S. blood is valued in my breeding program, but with emphasis with it on the dam's side.

I do agree Kris S. is a good place to use Roberto blood in the US market, which I mentioned.

No one can argue Kris S. wasnt a phenominal stallion, its just that none of his sons are coming close.

Arch is an interesting one. Two years ago, he was advertised for 5k I believe but you could have him for either 2.5 or 3.5k. I cant remember. Bernie Sams was desperate to get mares to him. Two years later, he's proving himself a quite useful stallion but I cant help but think its the family behind him.

Kissin Kris is actually a very useful stallion as well, and I think he may find quite a niche in the California market. With an abundance of speed mares, he may prove to be what the doctor ordered in raising versatility in that California speed.

I guess what im saying is, Kris S. has been a luke-warm sire of sires, but only because his own accomplishements were so phenominal especially when starting where he did and at the price.

Now, I may be wrong, but doesnt Kris S. hold the most winners of BC races than any other stallion? I know he's gotten quite a few.

ASB wrote:doesnt Kris S. hold the most winners of BC races than any other stallion? I know he's gotten quite a few.

He's tied with Sadler's Wells at 5 winners, though Sadler's Wells has 6 wins overall.

Prized (BC Turf), Hollywood Wildcat (BC Distaff), Action This Day (BC Juvenile), Brocco (BC Juvenile), and Soaring Softly (BC F&M Turf)

Point taken, ASB...although Dynaformer's $125,000 fee no longer makes him a "breed to race" sire. Sorry I missed the bit of sarcasm about turf in this country....which makes no sense. Lots 'o purse $$$ in this country around for a good turfer!

Arch is as good a filly sire as there is today. I don't think that it took Pine Island to put him on the map because he's got so many good ones around (and Pine Island may have been the most crooked of the bunch). He, and another favorite sire of mine, Rahy, could fill up a barn with fillies for me any day!

Actually, Red Ransom was a bit of a freak. Mr Miller NEVER thought he was THAT fast when he broke Saratoga's 5 furlong track record. Anyway, he's siring some good ones in Australia and he might come up with a "breakout" sire down there because the country is so starved for Hail To Reason blood. Sunday Silence did a tour of duty there and More Than Ready is shuttling down there, so maybe the first one to come up with a really good one will get that "breakout" sire down there. I'll never understand the attraction to Fu Peg down in Australia...as a turf sire?

Rokeby Forever wrote:Point taken, ASB...although Dynaformer's $125,000 fee no longer makes him a "breed to race" sire. Sorry I missed the bit of sarcasm about turf in this country....which makes no sense. Lots 'o purse $$$ in this country around for a good turfer!

In this country, alot of breeders don't consciously breed for turf for a variety of reasons. For one thing, it's unavailable to a large part of the country for a good part of the year. Secondly, when you can get a horse on the turf, it's pretty class restricted. If you happen to produce a $12,500 claimer who can only run on the turf, that horse isn't going to be running a lot. What's the lowest they write in SoCal--$40,000? and if you run in that, more often than not, you're facing some pretty tough imports who are just a step below stakes. In the US, turf is a niche and, if you breed for this niche, it helps if you're using Rahy, Theatrical or Dynaformer so that a buyer might think he has a shot at the graded stakes program. Otherwise you may be breeding a horse with very few options--and buyers know it.

Sysonby...your point is well taken, but I think breeders should keep in mind that turf-bred horses are really taking to Polytrack...a trend that may/not continue as more and more tracks have it installed. Dirt is no longer "dirt" as we know it, and "turf" sires may well become good Polytrack sires in the future. So, a future sire like George Washington might be viewed as a future "turf" sire, but his get might love Polytrack.

I'm not sure how this is going to shake out until there are conclusive results, but it'll sure be interesting to follow!

Sam wrote:When I finish my year end update, I'll throw up the starters, winners/foals, winners/starter stats for all his N. American based sons with more than 50 foals of racing age.

Okay, here goes...

Kris S. has/had 9 sons in the US with 50 or more foals of racing age (excluding the 2yos of 2007). I've left Brocco and Dr. Fong off this list because I can't get accurate figures for them (Brocco being in JPN and Dr. Fong in England)

I put the old man on top for reference, the 9 sons are ranked by highest to lowest percentage of starters.

STALLION -- FoRA -- STR -- WNR -- STR% -- W/F% -- W/S %

Kris S. -- 863 -- 746 -- 567 -- 86% -- 66% -- 76%

Turbulent Kris (deceased) 129 -- 109 -- 72 -- 84% -- 56% -- 66%
You And I -- 344 -- 270 -- 189 -- 78% -- 55% -- 70%
Kissin Kris -- 411 -- 319 -- 211 -- 78% -- 51% -- 66%
Evening Kris (deceased) -- 129 -- 100 -- 79 -- 78% --61% -- 79%
Prized -- 433 -- 324 -- 245 -- 75% -- 57% -- 76%
Arch -- 242 -- 169 -- 123 -- 70% -- 51% -- 73%
Reprized -- 135 -- 89 -- 53 -- 66% -- 39% -- 60%
Chief Kris -- 59 -- 30 -- 10 -- 51% -- 17% -- 33%
Adonis -- 70 -- 23 -- 14 -- 33% -- 20% -- 61%

Kissin Kris went to Kentucky at exactly the wrong time. Arch was finally starting to get hot, then Action This Day and Rock Hard Ten move in... he was flooded out of the market. If he'd made it a year or two earlier and been able to chip away at Arch's mares when they were both at the $5k level, he might have stayed. The only major difference between Kissin Kris and Arch is the number and quality of stakes winners -- but Arch had the advantage as he has had the full support of Claiborne whereas KKris had to make do with the arguably inferior Florida mare band (his only major support being Mr. Franks -- most of his best runners coming from the Franks Farm herd).

Adonis' numbers are just tragic. They should be much better, but I still can't get a straight story on his stud career or why there were so many problems with the first couple crops to race. If you can get them to start, they win. I'd rather see him in FL than NY right now.

Prized's numbers are not 100% accurate. As with Brocco and Dr. Fong, I can't get accurate numbers because he spent so much time in Australia. I listed him because he's not left the states in about 3 years now, I think I have accounted for 95% or more of his S. Hemi foals (some of them wound up racing under different names in Hong Kong/Korea and that's where I lost them) and because they are all old enough that they won't have that much effect on his overall numbers anyway.

The numbers I do have for Dr. Fong and Brocco (mainly just his N. Hemi and Aussie foals)...

Dr. Fong -- 261 -- 228 -- 106 -- 87% -- 41% -- 46%
Brocco -- 249 -- 170 -- 89 -- 68% -- 36% -- 52%

Kris S. has/had an additional 10 sons at stud with less than 50 foals of racing age. These are the barrel scrappers who probably shouldn't have gone to stud in most cases.

There's a pair on here who have less than 5 years at stud (King's Crown and Old Kentucky Home) who should be given the benefit of the doubt as they have an uphill battle, but seem to be making the best of their opportunities. History says horses from this line need time to mature so their numbers should improve (and they aren't that bad to begin with).

Thug and Le Ciel should be given more credit than they are getting, but because of where they stand (Thug in FL and Le Ciel in CA -- last I could verify anyway) they get lost in the shuffle. A move to a smaller regional market would be in both of their favours. Le Ciel probably belongs in the Great White North since Canada lost Turbulent Kris and hasn't found a solid Kris S. son to replace him yet and Thug would probably be better suited to the SW region... New Mexico maybe.

King's Crown (in PR, 2 crops) -- 17 -- 14 -- 3 -- 82% -- 18% -- 21%
Thug (9 crops) -- 19 -- 13 -- 8 -- 68% -- 42% -- 62%
Le Ciel (7 crops) -- 27 -- 18 -- 11 -- 67% -- 41% -- 61%
To A Wild Kris (8 crops) -- 17 -- 10 -- 5 -- 59% -- 29% -- 50%
Wake Up Alarm (7 crops) -- 40 -- 21 -- 15 -- 53% -- 38% -- 71%
Kris Kross (3 crops) -- 13 -- 6 -- 1 -- 46% -- 8% -- 17%
Cross Country Kris (7 crops) -- 20 -- 8 -- 1 -- 40% -- 5% -- 13%
Regal Kris (Deceased, 6 crops) -- 13 -- 5 -- 1 -- 38% -- 8% -- 20%
Old Kentucky Home (2 crops) -- 41 -- 14 -- 6 -- 34% -- 15% -- 43%
Rojo Warrior (2 crops) -- 11 -- 2 -- 0 -- 18% -- 0% -- 0%

17 sons with no foals of racing age:

Action This Day (standing 2nd year in Kentucky)
Chopper Won (standing 1st year in Venezuela)
Dunsinyne (lost in NY, last heard from when someone THOUGHT they found him and Old Friends was trying to rescue him from some farmer's back field)
Epicentre (standing 1st year in India)
Kris Kin (standing 3rd year in Ireland)
Kris's Solution (standing 2nd year in Florida???)
Lucky Story (standing 2nd year in England)
Rock Hard Ten (standing 2nd year in Kentucky)
Sabre d'Argent (standing 1st year in Florida)
Serazzo (standing 1st year in Texas)
Strategic Partner (standing 2nd year in Oklahoma)
Symboli Kris S (standing 3rd year in Japan???)
Tiger Hunt (standing 2nd year in S. Africa???)
Tiger Trap (standing 3rd year in Canada)
Tommy Bahama (standing 3rd year in Florida)
West Cork (standing 3rd year in New York)
Whitmore's Conn (standing 3rd year in Ireland???)

[quote="Rokeby Forever"]Point taken, ASB...although Dynaformer's $125,000 fee no longer makes him a "breed to race" sire. Sorry I missed the bit of sarcasm about turf in this country....which makes no sense. Lots 'o purse $$$ in this country around for a good turfer!

Arch is as good a filly sire as there is today. I don't think that it took Pine Island to put him on the map because he's got so many good ones around (and Pine Island may have been the most crooked of the bunch). He, and another favorite sire of mine, Rahy, could fill up a barn with fillies for me any day!

Actually, Red Ransom was a bit of a freak. Mr Miller NEVER thought he was THAT fast when he broke Saratoga's 5 furlong track record. Anyway, he's siring some good ones in Australia and he might come up with a "breakout" sire down there because the country is so starved for Hail To Reason blood. Sunday Silence did a tour of duty there and More Than Ready is shuttling down there, so maybe the first one to come up with a really good one will get that "breakout" sire down there. I'll never understand the attraction to Fu Peg down in Australia...as a turf sire?[/quote]


Sunday Silence never toured Australia, Australian broodmares were sent to him in japan. As for the attraction of Fu Peg in Australia, mainly because of his race performance and pedigree. Most US stallions shuttling to Australia have never raced on turf, its a risk Australian studs/breeders are willing to take.