Artie Schiller
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Artie Schiller
Any thoughts on him? Anyone seen him yet? What do you think his chances are as a stallion?
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"My occupational hazard is that my occupation is just not around" - Jimmy Buffett
Re: Artie Schiller
clh wrote:Any thoughts on him? Anyone seen him yet? What do you think his chances are as a stallion?
I'm skepitical of AS as a sire as I am of all El Prado sons.... but as Madelyn points out he may have a future with synthetic surfaces. I wouldn't want to breed to him for over $3,500, however... and he stands for what $12,500... $15,000? To high until he's proven.
There's still many good/proven studs around the country for under $10,000... some below $5,000 as well. No reason to spend more then you need to for coming up with a runner.
I've been over to Hurricane Hall to see Artie a couple of times now, and am very impressed with him. His conformation is great--everything's correct, beautiful balance, a very athletic look, much more streamlined like a turf horse, not bulky like a sprinter (we saw him next to Bellamy Road, who looks much different, more stout and wider chest, more sprinter-like, but also really good looking). Artie's first two Dams are both Multiple Grade 1 Stakes Winners, so his X is going to be great, and the Sadler's Wells sire line is doing very well, so you can be successful with either a colt or a filly. I know his book is getting tight, as the El Prado sons are very popular in KY right now with all of the Turf and Poly Track. As for his soundness--he retired mid year last year, and in his last race at Keeneland, he lost by a nose to Miesque's Approval, who went on to win the Net Jets Breeders Cup Mile at Churchill, so he was darn good right til the end. What best sums up my impression of Artie--we booked two of our mares to him!
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sunday_silence
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Bill from WA
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I'm not sure about an open house-- but you can go over to Hurricaine Hall almost any day to see Artie. I'd give the stallion manager a call first just to let them know your coming. Since Hurricaine Hall is primarily a training facility (vs a stallion/breeding farm) late morning visits should be better.
I feel I also have to comment on the earlier post rearding his Stud fee, though--$3500 may get you to a proven sire in another state, in KY, the only thing $3500 will get you is a stallion proven to be "less than successful". Compare Artie to the other sons of El Prado--Medaglia D'Oro entered stud at $35K, his foals sold very well and he immediately jumped to $40K; Kittens Joy is standing for $30K (his first foals will be born this year), and Borrego will enter stud in '07 at $20K. None of these have runners yet, and once they do, if they're "proven", you'll see their fees go up another $5K-$15K depending on where they fall on the 2YO Sire list. While breeding to an unproven sire is always a risky venture, careful stallion selection can minimize the financial risk. Because once they're proven, you may not be able to get to them--look at Officer ($15K-$40K) or Include ($12.5K-$25K).
And by the way, Saddlers Wells has several millionaire sons and grandsons, and they're running on all surfaces--turf, dirt, and synthetic--very flexibile.
I feel I also have to comment on the earlier post rearding his Stud fee, though--$3500 may get you to a proven sire in another state, in KY, the only thing $3500 will get you is a stallion proven to be "less than successful". Compare Artie to the other sons of El Prado--Medaglia D'Oro entered stud at $35K, his foals sold very well and he immediately jumped to $40K; Kittens Joy is standing for $30K (his first foals will be born this year), and Borrego will enter stud in '07 at $20K. None of these have runners yet, and once they do, if they're "proven", you'll see their fees go up another $5K-$15K depending on where they fall on the 2YO Sire list. While breeding to an unproven sire is always a risky venture, careful stallion selection can minimize the financial risk. Because once they're proven, you may not be able to get to them--look at Officer ($15K-$40K) or Include ($12.5K-$25K).
And by the way, Saddlers Wells has several millionaire sons and grandsons, and they're running on all surfaces--turf, dirt, and synthetic--very flexibile.
I talked to Hurricane Hall yesterday.. no party this year. The stallion barn and breeding shed are under construction but you can call and make an appointment to see him, which is my plan for next week sometime.
I really like him.. but they aren't "dealin" at all.. I'm going to see him and Bellamy Road anyhow.
I really like him.. but they aren't "dealin" at all.. I'm going to see him and Bellamy Road anyhow.
So Run for the Roses, as fast as you can.....
Artie Shiller looks "reasonably priced" at $15,000 in comparison to Kitten's Joy($30,000) and Medalia D'Or($40,000), El Prado's other relatively new sons at stud. But it seems seems many in the business have become "boiled frogs" in regards to stud fees. They no longer are skeptical of unproven/over-priced sires. I'm from Missouri regarding sires and until they prove they are worthy I'd recommend breeding to proven sires in the same price range.
Silver Deputy is standing for $30,000 this year and is a proven sire of many top horses(Silverbulletday and Badge of Silver among others). He has sired top horses on both dirt and turf. He offers far more value then many young/unproven sires save perhaps in the sales ring.... but who can believe much of what comes out of the sales arena? We can buy each others horses all day at 5 even 10 times the advertised sires stud fee and of course this goes on unabated.
The only new sire that looks tempting to me for the price is Essense of Dubai who is standing for $5,000 in Florida at Hartley/De Renzo . He is by Pulpit out of the champion mare Epitome, who has also proven to be a top producer. EoD earned over $2,000,000 winning at racing venues throughout the world i.e won the GII Norfolk Stakes in California at 2 while having broken his maiden going 6 furlongs at Hollywood. As a 3 year old he won the GII UAE Derby and UAE 2000 Guineas in Dubai before returning stateside too win the GII Super Derby while also running 2nd in the Penn. Derby and 3rd in the Jim Dandy. Compare him to Pulpit's other son at stud Purge who stands for $20,000 at Vinery and EoD is a "no brainer" for $5,000.
Silver Deputy is standing for $30,000 this year and is a proven sire of many top horses(Silverbulletday and Badge of Silver among others). He has sired top horses on both dirt and turf. He offers far more value then many young/unproven sires save perhaps in the sales ring.... but who can believe much of what comes out of the sales arena? We can buy each others horses all day at 5 even 10 times the advertised sires stud fee and of course this goes on unabated.
The only new sire that looks tempting to me for the price is Essense of Dubai who is standing for $5,000 in Florida at Hartley/De Renzo . He is by Pulpit out of the champion mare Epitome, who has also proven to be a top producer. EoD earned over $2,000,000 winning at racing venues throughout the world i.e won the GII Norfolk Stakes in California at 2 while having broken his maiden going 6 furlongs at Hollywood. As a 3 year old he won the GII UAE Derby and UAE 2000 Guineas in Dubai before returning stateside too win the GII Super Derby while also running 2nd in the Penn. Derby and 3rd in the Jim Dandy. Compare him to Pulpit's other son at stud Purge who stands for $20,000 at Vinery and EoD is a "no brainer" for $5,000.
'Nuts, you and I agree about breeding to unproven stallions coming in at $20K-$30K-$40K and up, but getting to a proven stallion for $3500 just doesn't exist in KY (for $5K-$6K I can breed to some good value proven stallions, but not $3500). I can get to a lot of very proven sires at the $20K-$40K rate, and wouldn't gamble on someone unproven for that price. But on a smaller level, breeders looking in the $5K-$15K stud fee range may find some value in a proven sire, but they typically won't get the "big horse" in the sales ring at a stud fee under $10K. And you're now seeing a trend in stallion farms bumping up the stud fees based on weanling sales alone, still two years away from a race!
Artie's value at $15K is evident when you see Medaglia D'Oro's babies selling for an average of $187,476 and a MEDIAN of $175K (WOW!) in '06. If Artie's babies look the part, he'll be a steal at $15K.
My philosophy is that nowadays you have to "take some risks" on the unproven sires when you see a sire line's offspring selling well in the ring and can get in to a stallion while the fee is still in your price range (as long as that stallion is a good match for your mare--breeding to any stallion at any price that doesn't fit you mare is foolish). Once they hit the track (or even the sales ring), if they run well, you probably can't get to them the next year.
Artie's value at $15K is evident when you see Medaglia D'Oro's babies selling for an average of $187,476 and a MEDIAN of $175K (WOW!) in '06. If Artie's babies look the part, he'll be a steal at $15K.
My philosophy is that nowadays you have to "take some risks" on the unproven sires when you see a sire line's offspring selling well in the ring and can get in to a stallion while the fee is still in your price range (as long as that stallion is a good match for your mare--breeding to any stallion at any price that doesn't fit you mare is foolish). Once they hit the track (or even the sales ring), if they run well, you probably can't get to them the next year.
Olga George wrote:'Nuts, you and I agree about breeding to unproven stallions coming in at $20K-$30K-$40K and up, but getting to a proven stallion for $3500 just doesn't exist in KY (for $5K-$6K I can breed to some good value proven stallions, but not $3500). I can get to a lot of very proven sires at the $20K-$40K rate, and wouldn't gamble on someone unproven for that price. But on a smaller level, breeders looking in the $5K-$15K stud fee range may find some value in a proven sire, but they typically won't get the "big horse" in the sales ring at a stud fee under $10K. And you're now seeing a trend in stallion farms bumping up the stud fees based on weanling sales alone, still two years away from a race!
Artie's value at $15K is evident when you see Medaglia D'Oro's babies selling for an average of $187,476 and a MEDIAN of $175K (WOW!) in '06. If Artie's babies look the part, he'll be a steal at $15K.
My philosophy is that nowadays you have to "take some risks" on the unproven sires when you see a sire line's offspring selling well in the ring and can get in to a stallion while the fee is still in your price range (as long as that stallion is a good match for your mare--breeding to any stallion at any price that doesn't fit you mare is foolish). Once they hit the track (or even the sales ring), if they run well, you probably can't get to them the next year.
You make sense in regards to "breeding to sell" and at $15,000 AS offers far less risk then say First Samurai at $40,000. However, neither has proven they are worth two dead-flies as far as being a sire of racehorses and why I tend to shy away from the unproven studs save perhaps the Essense of Dubai types at $5,000 who I believe offers a decent risk/reward.
Of course I've never been interested in hitting a home run in the sales ring rather simply raising a good horse and then selling said horse once proven on the track for the right price. Horse sales have been out of whack for decades going back to when the big family farms faded out while being replaced by the commercial breeders which continues to this day. Why people pay million$ for unproven yearlings/2 year olds and even weanlings will forever be a mystery to me irregardless of breeding.
I was at Saratoga when Henny Hughes sold privatley as a 2 year old for a shade over $4,000,000. People were all abuzz thinking it was "to high" and I just shook my head in disbelief. HH had broke his maiden and won a stake's race with ease... if anything he looked like a "bargain" at the $4,000,000 range and indeed he proved to be just that as he is standing for $40,000 this year at Darley after having a successful racing career albeit in the sprint ranks save his nice 2nd place finish in the BCJ (however, I'd like him much better at 1/10th his listed stud price but I digress). Discreet Cat was also sold privately at Saratoga after breaking his maiden. And what a bargain he is no matter what they paid(I never did here a concrete figure on DC sales price but if someone heard such I'd be interested to know... I'm guessing somewhere between $4-5 million which would be a HUGE bargain based on his performance since).
My point is things are always changing and I suspect that in the future top dollars for TBs may only be paid AFTER a horse proves itself on the track. Why pay $5,000,000 for an unproven yearling when horses like Discreet Cat/Henny Hughes etc. can be purchased for the same price AFTER HAVING PROVEN THAT THEY INDEED CAN RUN. We've all seen the countless hundred thousand dollar and million dollar yearlings that can't out run a fat man. So how much longer will this trend continue? Nothing lasts forever. At some point a "correction" in stud fees and sales prices is going to happen..... so beware when booking to unproven sires at questionable fees.
Artie Schiller is a good looking horse and offers some value to breeders, no doubt. But let's be honest, he's going to be viewed as a turf horse, which is the reason for his stud fee. Even with solid performances against very good competition, im not sure he was ever considered top class by many...
The other El Prado's (excluding Kitten's Joy), showed more versatility of surface preference. With that said, I feel Artie Schiller is the best of the bunch and is priced nicely if you're looking for that Sadler's Wells line.
The other El Prado's (excluding Kitten's Joy), showed more versatility of surface preference. With that said, I feel Artie Schiller is the best of the bunch and is priced nicely if you're looking for that Sadler's Wells line.