Pedigree Query

OK, I've picked on Storm Cat long enough - let's try to justify Unbridled Song's stud fee and his sons going to stud.

For $200,000, Unbridled's Song not only guarantees an unsound horse (does any offspring NOT have bad feet?), but you have a 2% chance of breeding/buying a foal that will be a Graded Stakes Winner. 2% for a $200,000 fee? Well, his male yearlings average $363,000, so someone must think something of them. His average runner earns under $70,000, so breedrs/buyers must think he has potential to sire a future stallion.

Of his 5 best sons now at stud:

Rockport Harbor: 8 starts
Buddha: 4 starts
Eurosilver: 12 starts
Songandaprayer: 8 starts
Value Plus: 15 starts

Um...not exactly durable types, are they?

Songandaprayer's male yearlings average $120,000, which might justify his $45,000 stud fee, but like his father, he's siring 2% Graded Stakes Winners. I guess even up, you might want to breed to the son rather than the father at roughly 1/4 the fee. However, maybe his best son, What A Song, broke down after only 3 starts.

Buddha's first crop is probably the WORST first year to race of any sire in history. Of 117 foals, he has 5 winners, no repeat winners, no stakes winners of any kind, and an AEI of 0.35. I think his stud fee was dropped to $10,000 next year, which might still be $9,900 too much.

I'm sure I'll get pounded with the usual "You're a troll" comments, but none of these numbers lie. Some of us live in the real world and some of us don't.

hi Rokeby Forever

Many of the Songandaprayers that I've seen are genuinely easy on the eyes and quite well-made & impressive (in general). That said...his recently retired-to-stud son Praying for Cash is offset and toes-in...go figure.

At some point the public's apparent attraction to the Songandaprayers will likely wear thin if he does little more (as a sire) than deliver a couple of sprinters or could, woulda, shouldas every now and then. As good looking as so many of them are though...he might be worthy of some patience (at least for a while).

As for Buddha...it wouldn't surprise me if Hill n Dale is attempting to make him disappear, sooner rather than later. Maybe the same disappearing act might be considered for Unbridled Time too.

Respectfully

Songandaprayer has gotten really cold.

He became a hot commodity because from his first crop of 2yo's he had almost 35% 2yo winners, including six 2yo stakes horses, and this was from a crop about half the size of some of the major commercial stallions crops. He finished 2005 ranked #9 on the list of the 100 leading sires of 2yo's. With numbers like that I can't blame people a bit for being excited about him last season.

His second crop of 2yo's though yielded only about 11% 2yo winners. and 0 2yo stakes horses, and he finished 2006 not ranked at all on the list of the 100 leading sires of 2yo's.

And none of Songandaprayer's offspring from either crop have placed in a stake in the last five months.

He may come back strong as two of his best from his first crop, Songster and Praying For Cash, didn't really get going until they were three but it is disconcerting that those two didn't stay going for long. Praying For Cash, as was mentioned, is already retired to stud and I don't think Songster has raced since June of last year. And of course his very talented What A Song from his first crop never even made it to three.

Nevertheless, I find breeding to Songandaprayer for $45,000 at this point to be a huge risk. He'll have plenty in the upcoming 2yo sales (really where he first drew serious attention to himself was What A Song working a 1/4 in record time at Barrets and then selling for $1.9 million) so he may stay a 'buzz' horse based on some fast 2yo sale works and high 2yo sale prices for the next few months even if his offspring aren't doing anything on the track, but come fall an ugly reality could be settling in as you write that $45,000 check for the baby in your mares belly.

With all that said, if they want to move him back to Ocala and stand him for $10,000 again then I'M ALL IN BABY.

Now Rokeby, if you're going to pick on Unbridled's Song sons at stud, be fair and include ALL the "good" ones, not just "his 5 best" (in your words). For the sake of argument, I'm defining "good" as "won a stake."

That would be, in alphabetical order:

Buddha (1st crop just turned 3)
Domestic Dispute (oldest are yearlings)
Eurosilver
Even the Score (oldest are yearlings)
Rockport Harbor
Songandaprayer (oldest are 4yo)
Unbridled Energy
Unbridled Time (oldest are 3yo)
Value Plus

Unbridled Time made 24 starts, Domestic Dispute made 21, and Even the Score made 29. That's about the breed average for well-breed commercial prospect runners these days...8 starts a year.

If you're going to try and prove a point, you can't cherry-pick your data.

U's Song also has several sons at stud who haven't won stakes. Per the online Stallion Register, here are all his sons at stud:

Arthur's Ring Unbridled's Song Lake Stud KY $5,000 2006
Buddha Unbridled's Song Hill 'n' Dale Farms KY $10,000 2003
Domestic Dispute Unbridled's Song Northview Stallion Station MD $5,000 2005
Eurosilver Unbridled's Song Dromoland Farm KY $12,500 2006
Even the Score Unbridled's Song Millennium Farms Kentucky LLC KY $7,500 2005
Half Ours Unbridled's Song N/A
Irish Road Unbridled's Song Signature Stallions FL $1,500 2006
My Golden Song Unbridled's Song Valor Farm TX $3,000 2007
Rationalexuberance Unbridled's Song Rancho San Antonio DR $2,500 2006
Rockport Harbor Unbridled's Song Darley KY $20,000 2007
Songandaprayer Unbridled's Song Walmac Farm LLC KY $45,000 2002
Unbridled Energy Unbridled's Song Crestwood Farm KY $10,000 2007
Unbridled Time Unbridled's Song Signature Stallions FL $5,000 2003
Value Plus Unbridled's Song Stonewall Farm Stallions KY $12,500 2006
Werblin

Why do I look at La Troienne's list and hear Elvis in the back of my head singing, "You ain't nothing but a hound dog"? The fiberglass patch people will never go out of business with this roster of stallions around.

My God, does the Unbridled line of rotten feet continue through Unbridled's Song. I have no clue what people spending all kinds of $$$ on the Empire Makers think they're getting. Must be nice to be a blacksmith with the sons and grandsons of Unbridled around.

When I think on Storm Cat's, I normally relate them to overpaying (with a few exceptions), but when I think on Unbridled's song's I cannot take from my mind the word "disaster".

Even The Score may yet prove useful. He was more durable than the usual UBS, and comes from a damline of hard-knockers. I knew his third dam (which is why I've kept an eye on him), and she was an old-fashioned tank. Not the least bit precocious, though, so the breeders will stay away in droves...

Kimberley, Even The Score and Domestic Dispute had nowhere near the talent level of Rockport Harbor or Value Plus - they simply lasted longer. I wouldn't say that they were two of his best sons, as much as I'd say they were 2 of his most durable. Did Unbridled Time have anywhere near the talent level of Songandaprayer?

Don't combine apples with oranges. Stop orangepicking!

Rokeby Forever wrote:Even The Score and Domestic Dispute had nowhere near the talent level of Rockport Harbor or Value Plus

That, of course, is strictly a matter of opinion.

I don't see anyone anointing Unbridled's Song a "sire of sires" except you, Rokeby. Horses go to stud for all sorts of reasons... Without neophyte stallion owners standing a stallion they had no other idea what to do with, there would have been no Free House. That doesn't mean I think you should breed every horse that comes along, but it also does not mean that a stallion is a "sire of sires" just because a bunch of people are going to take a chance on one of his sons at stud.

FOS wrote:As for Buddha...it wouldn't surprise me if Hill n Dale is attempting to make him disappear, sooner rather than later

Hi FOS,

Do you mean "disappear" Picochet style? Or do you mean they'll just sell him (possibly overseas)?

-llbean

Well, Buddha had a stakes winner today at Golden Gate Fields.

Sam...read the messages...nobody thinks Unbridled's Song is a sire of sires. Figure out something else to be your usual contrarian self.

And, someone in the TB world thinks Unbridled's Song is a sire of sires - there's gotta be a reason why he stands for $200,000 when his average runner earns only $70,000 or so. That's roughly 1/3 of the fee - the same as Storm Cat's average runner earning about $145,000 - about 1/3 of his fee.

Rokeby Forever wrote:And, someone in the TB world thinks Unbridled's Song is a sire of sires - there's gotta be a reason why he stands for $200,000 when his average runner earns only $70,000 or so. That's roughly 1/3 of the fee - the same as Storm Cat's average runner earning about $145,000 - about 1/3 of his fee.

blink

Oh I KNOW you didn't just try to go there.

You can't HONESTLY believe a stallion's stud fee is based in any way, shape or form by what his SONS stand for?

You can't POSSIBLY be that stupid. Do you think before you make those comments or do you make them because you know that's the fastest way to get a little (negative) attention?

His stud fee is what it is because of what his foals earn in the sales ring and the hype achieved on the track.