stamina over speed

[wallinga]

Interesting article in the racing post.

"THOUGHTS at the Asian Racing Conference in Dubai turned to breeding on Thursday, when Oliver Tait, general manager of Darley Australia and a board member of Aushorse, which represents Australia’s commercial breeders, challenged delegates at a workshop to think of how to divert the emphasis on breeding primarily two-year-old runners and speed horses.

Tait said that racing depends on “brave, sound horses” who compete over longer distances and for several seasons to “give it gravitas as a sport”.

“By focusing on speed, we’re moving away from horses that can possibly fulfil that criteria. We need more horses that are heroes; we need more Makybe Divas and more Deep Impacts,” he said, referring to the mare who won the Cox Plate and Melbourne Cup as a seven-year-old and to Japan’s two-time Horse of the Year.

Racing administrators can take the lead in reversing the speed trend by offering better prize-money in other types of races, he suggested."

I have long held that the obsession with speed (particularly early two year old speed) is going to weaken the breed, and I think breeders and buyers need to share some of the blame. The middle echelon money may be all speed oriented, but everytime a speed stallion is syndicated for huge sums or one of his yearlings sell for huge sums, you're back to square one again.

Think of all the great champions of the past who have shown their mettle over two miles. They used to be the norm rather than a rarity.

On the flip side, if you can find a stallion whose progeny excel over long distances, you may get away with some tidy (if not commercial) profits... there's no competition after all!!

Anyway, would welcome any insights on sire lines that are responsible for the sprint phenomenan, plus perhaps any up and coming sire lines that are showing a disposition towards staying

[Maven]

Swain is a stallion that imparts a lot of stamina thats available to US breeders. Also to note, his foals, even though being almost completely turf, sell quite well when compared to stud fee at the larger sales. There's a very real and ready market for them.

[bcassidy]

You can look at the Chef de Race classification for a stallion and fairly judge what his tendency will be. Clearly the Mr P stallion line has been the most responsible for the heavy US speed influence, Northern Dancer tends to be more middle distance and occaisionally longer distance oriented. Hail to Reason, Ribot, Princequillo, etc tend to be more stamina oriented. I am not trying to be comprehensive about the list of stallions at all but most of the current stallions trace to one of the stallions mentioned above, in the US anyway. Hope this helps a little.

[griff]

bcassidy

What about rgeBold Ruler; Seattle Slew and/or Scretariat line?/

griff

[geowarrior]

I didn't think we had too many left of the Princequillo line. Are we talking specifically tail male influences or influences generally?

How would you rate the In Reality line?

[bcassidy]

Influences in general---sires such as as Bold Ruler, Secretariat, Seattle Slew, etc show up in many pedigrees and add middle distance and classic distance stamina to a pedigree. It is very difficult to find a stallion with a high concentration of just Bold Ruler, maybe a stallion like Formal Dinner comes to mind first.
In Reality is an excellent example of a speed oriented sire, I love to see him in a pedigree, especially as the broodmare sire. Hopes that helps a little

[geowarrior]

It does thanks, bcassidy. I like to see In Reality anywhere in a pedigree also. Something else I've started to like recently is to see Count Fleet through his daughters.

[Roguelet]

Bold Ruler, Secretariat, Seattle Slew, etc show up in many pedigrees and add middle distance and classic distance stamina to a pedigree.

In Reality is an excellent example of a speed oriented sire, I love to see him in a pedigree, especially as the broodmare sire.

You just perfectly described a stallion very near and dear to me.

[geowarrior]

Hmmm, Roguelet, what stallion could that be? *looks to the sky in puzzlement*

[wallinga]

Of course another symptom of the need for speed is the lessoning of impact that derby winners (Kentucky, Epsom or otherwise) are having these days

[bcassidy]

Indy Mood has a very nice pedigree..... hope he gets a great chance to prove himself.....

[angelsprite]

What I've seen in my research is that the great horses are usually versatile. They have speed and can win at 5 and 6 furlongs, but they have stamina and heart, and can go long. They basically put their speed on the end of the race, instead of all the way around, powering past other horses in the stretch. A horse that can save it for the end, and has it when he needs it, will beat a slower horse that can run all day.
The thing to look for is balance in the influences. Speed and distance are both essential in the pedigree in fairly even amounts. When there is an imbalance, it should be for more distance.
You can see the speed and distance influences in percentages in linebreeding, and percentages in the 5 generation pedigree. This gives the actual percentage of genes coming from each sire and dam producing and the descendents they produced through, to determine the influence. The over-all percentages gives a pretty good view of whether there is balance, or a predominance of speed over distance or vice versa.
In Reality is a wonderful source of soundness and stamina. This is the Godolfin Arabian sireline through Matchem, progenitor of the Fair Play line.
Princequillo is a St. Simon line and the St. Simon line is alive and well. On the other thread, we were discussing Nudge. He is tail male St. Simon. The more crosses of St. Simon through multiple descendents, the more class is produced. William The Third, Persimmon, Princequillo are all horses to look for in linebreeding to increase stamina and soundness.
Check out the Gallery Of Greats on my website and you can see how each family member contributes a percentage. The percentages add to be a percentage for each family, grouped by sireline. These closely related horses carried and passed on many of the same alleles, essentially protecting the integrity of the qualities those families brought to the mating. I love this discussion.
The Dubai guys had to tell the Aussies, we need more class so horses can show their worth. The Dubai guys told the Kentucky boys, the money needs to circulate through the industry better so everyone can compete well to prove their horses worth. I like these Dubai guys. I think they've been reading my posts. LOL.

[bcassidy]

Geowarrier, I agree about daughters of Count Fleet. I would suspect he was such a high class stallion that he attracted very high quality mares and therefore has left a strong legacy through the daughters he produced from that great book of mares. Secretariat has the same legacy--- No great sons but very good broodies.

[madelyn]

One of the nicer gals in my broodmare band, Valiant Spirit, has Count Fleet not too far back (3rd damsire).

I also like to see Quack (or T. V. Lark) as a speed influence.

[nythoroughbredvz]

bcassidy wrote:
Bold Ruler, Secretariat, Seattle Slew, etc show up in many pedigrees and add middle distance and classic distance stamina to a pedigree.

In Reality is an excellent example of a speed oriented sire, I love to see him in a pedigree, especially as the broodmare sire

i asked for oppinions on my stallion Dr. Koch but no responses, i know he didnt produce much, but what do you think about him, and what mares would best fit him. this posting is oppinions on my old mans bloodlines! so i thought i would as here! thank you..