Pedigree Query

I know I may regret this, but with all the buzz (Hi, Rokeby) over US and how rotten and unsound his progeny are, I thought I'd take a look at his progeny here.
Scanning the list, it seems he has many who started over 10 times and a few who started over 30 times.
Unbridled's Song himself has a better record than I remember.
Is it just that so many of his lightly raced and injured sons are trendy sires now? Isn't that more the fault of the industry, those who retire unsound horses to stud for the cash, and those breeders who GO to these stallions and perpetuate flaws?
I see where the roll-of-the-eyes where US's sons are concerned lies, but not with US himself. He may not sire sires, but he's siring runners and winners.
And at least he's giving us lots of gorgeous young dappled grays!
Thoughts? Am I stating the obvious? Totally off?

Anybody my friend anymore?

Toccet...you knew I'd be drooling when I saw this thread. LOL!!!

I'm not sure about his siring quality runners these days - US had only one Grade 1 winner last year (although others seem to feel that people buy USs because he sires Grade 1 winners, or so they've written).

Is making 10 starts in a career some sort of benchmark? A son of US like Werblin raced 10 times and is standing stud - he raced twice as a 2 year old, 3 times as a 3 year old, twice as a 4 year old, and three times as a 5 year old. I guess some would say, "Wow! What durability to race over 4 seasons!" LOL!

Unbridled's Song has a better record than you remember? I guess you're a fan of those egg shaped bar shoes!

As long as people buy his foals and people keep flocking to his sons to breed unsound horses, it's nobody's fault except the people that buy these horses. In the case of Half Ours, what are people that breed to him or buy his offspring expecting to get?

Of course, I don't think many Songandaprayers are going for $1.8 Million any more...I think people want more than 3 starts out of a horse before it breaks down, as was the case with What A Song.

Why are US and his sons successful at the sales? No other reason than the Unbridled line sires BIG horses....size matters, especially at the sales. That's about all it takes to become a commerical success these days - just sire overgrown foals and people will jump all over them. If you disagree...just ask Rahy.

10 starts is a pretty pathetic benchmark in my view....it's only worth noting because so many horses now don't achieve it.
There's also a long stream of earnings in the $300,000 and up category under his progeny....that's a sign of a decent runner regardless of stakes wins, in my view.
which reminds me of another opinion thread I have to start . . .

Reason people buy... big and gorgeous. Also, usually from top female families (or at least top running or producing mares).

I cannot believe I am writing anything in defense of the Unbridled line... however, I think a significant part of the problems falls directly upon the greed of the owners and trainers.

The line is big, and probably takes longer to fully develop. Perhaps, genetically, they need more time for bone maturation, and possible other physical maturation (and possibly even mental maturation). However, when someone spends big bucks on a foal, then the clock starts ticking. They want to see their foal run. They want to try to recoup their funds. Their trainer wants to keep them happy and win awards for himself.

After all the foal is big... shouldn't he have the advantage over the other 2 yr. olds? "We need to make a sire, that is where the money is at."

Unfortunately, it seems the Unbridled Songs foals often have enough talent to further the "push"... then the talent and the "push" overtakes the anatomy and you have a problem.

I've said it before, slow horses rarely get hurt. They also rarely get pushed... (I cannot tell you how many trainers greatly suppliment their income by telling owners that their slow steeds "... just need more time...", thus keeping them in the shedrow and keeping those training fees rolling in.) Then, at age 5 the critter finally breaks his maiden... in a $12,500 maiden claimer. Purse $5,000; 3.5 yrs. of training $80,000+; seeing your horse in the winners circle, priceless (of course, you are also hoping the critter got claimed so you can stop going to the races and begin your second job which will help you get out of debt).

KAL,

I agree completely with your logic behind the size of the US line. I have just purchased a late 3 y/o, sold last year as a 2 y/o in training for $240K. He is a monster already at 16.3h and the body to match his height.

Big surprise....after he was purchsed and pushed along in his training he was coming up sore. Well, DUH, he's huge and gangly at this point. I bought this horse to be a hunter, he is a lovely mover.....nothing physically wrong with him except that he needs time for those huge bones to mature. I plan on giving him a light 3 y/o year on the flat and starting over fences next spring.

Big horses simply need more time to learn how to best use their bodies, it's alot of weight and height to be throwing around, especially in the learning stages. You take an unbalanced youngster, add height and weight to futher complicate matters and everybody shakes their heads wondering why their big horse has soundness problems....let them grow into themselves!!!!

I totally agree with you. I have an Ascot knight that is 16.2 and big boned and beautiful. We broke him as a yearling and started light work with him. He didn't even make the races as a 3 year old!! He was too big and still mentally immature. I would rather have a sound runner through 4, 5, 6+ years than a broken down one at 2yrs. People just don't want to wait, and think they can push these young horses. They see others getting 2 year olds to the races and think why not. but what you don't see is the torchure of the poor animal behind the scenes. injecting bucked shins and all the joints causing irreperable damage that will last a life time. Ruinining a perfectly talented horse that could of matured into something great. If the betting pubic knew what happend in the back stretch there would be outrage!!

I would rather breed to a horse who had many starts over a long period of time. When you think about it. what are the chances of you getting a true stakes horse who will win a tonn of money in little races. So if the stallion doesn't produce sound individuals and you get a mediocre racehorse. you will NEVER recoop your money. Because they will never be able to make enough in a few starts!! but if it was sound and had longevity in the lines, it could race for years (maybe in only claimers) but be a ble to eek out a good amount of $ every year without destroying it.

that is just my opinion. coming from an owner's perspective. Who runs in low end claimers for a living. and who respects the animal. We have had many horses run for us for 3 and 4 years and make good money every year!!

Hi Kal. I can buy your argument about US progeny racing too early, but it doesn't explain the congenital foot problems that his foals have. Maybe racing badfooted foals like Rockport Harbor and Songandaprayer (and even crooked Buddha) as 2 year olds brought their foot woes on earlier than had they began racing later, but the foot problems are genetic - they will flare up at some point.

The Big-boned slows...kind of like the fat kid in gym class, that grew into himself in high school.. or not.. I had a 50k arch son..he made a blue ribbon hunter on the flat horse.. but damn I think fat albert could out run him..

Half Ours, a 4yo Unbridled's Song colt won the GII Richter Scale today. This is the reason why US is so popular. Yes, there is some soundness issues (I think size and lack of patience is a huge player here), but when they're on, they're next to brilliant and extremely fast.

A good Unbridled's Song 3yo colt by the name of Takes My Song won a MSW at Gulfstream for Winstar. He's a half to multiple Group III winner Frost Giant, by Giant's Causeway (oh no!). Fabulous female family behind him and closely related to Bluegrass Cat (oh no again!).

Oh, and a Johannesburg and a Stormy Atlantic (both Storm Cat line colts) ran 1-2 in the GII Fountain of Youth. Damn those Storm Cats! We should drown them all at birth!

Some soundness issues? His 5th start as a 4 year old? Nah....

You forgot to mention that Mr Sekiguchi won yesterday. He'll be paid out in 2073 at this rate.

I didn't see...any Forestrys run anywhere today?

Rokeby:
Would you kindly (or unkindlyif you want) expound on the congenital feet problems with the Unbridled Song line. Are the feet too small? Too brittle? Oddly conformed? What age are you in the clear if it doesn't happen? Does it pop up on both sexes and all ages? Thanks

Hpkingjr,

I've given list after list of US progeny that retired from foot injuries. The old man himself was the "egg shaped barshoe" posterboy and he's passed on his feet to his progeny - no question about it. The problem seems to pop up fairly early because the overwhelming amount of US foals that race don't race all that much.

His numbers, in the interest of fairness, are better than Forestry's. Not too many Forestrys stay sound enough to do much of anything. If I need to explain that - without the UAE Derby purse, would Forestry have ANY millionaires?

hi Rokeby Forever...hi guys

Rokeby Forever wrote:Not too many Forestrys stay sound enough to do much of anything.

Is that what's called An Inconvenient Truth...hmmm

...with that in mind...Choices du Jour

Today's menu:

$125,000 gets you a season to Forestry plus a tin can half-full of candy (in December) from Taylor Made.

or

$125,000 gets you a season to Stormy Atlantic plus $95,000 change.

Hmmm...decisions decisions.

Best to you.

Respectfully

Can we split the difference? $65,000 gets you to Rahy, you have $60,000 change.

Rokeby:

Thanks for your reply. My question was unclear so I'll rephrase: I am not interested in names as much as the clinical entities. What I would like is specific info on shape, size, hardness, corrective shoeing, patching, conformation or whatever is causing the problem so as to better understand your points and also to observe future offspring a little closer.
Is it hard to describe or is it like pornography, I'll know it when I see it?

When you say foot or stomach or conformation problems, it's a little too broad for me. I would really like the specific foot/hoof maladies that you have direct knowledge of in this line. As an aside would an Unbridled Song be more likely to have feet problems in CA as opposed to Florida? Would they be more likely to have problems with certain trainers? (you pick your favs).