Oldies but Goodies....

[pokeyman]

Ok. What old stallions out there (over 20) need to be used more before they are gone as they represent great value?

We can't forget the good old boys who are proven in favor of the hot, young stallions.

Here is the criteria:

He must have at least 5% stakes winners lifetime and an AEI higher than his CI.

I would have said Runaway Groom and Crafty Prospector..

What about Skip Trial? Waquoit?

[Denise]

Just based on the ability to get runners, I think Slew City Slew is a bargain.
And I would send lots of mares to Cozzene (even at his age and price) rather than some untested, unraced or unsound young stallion.

[ak1]

Pleasant Tap, Dynaformer, Rahy, Cozzene, Two Punch according to their statistical summaries.... Waquoit just misses 1.38 AEI/ 1.44 CI, as does Quiet American 1.77 AEI/ 1.80 CI

Thought Dixieland Band, Gone West, Theatrical, Seeking the Gold and Gulch would meet criteria but no such luck with AEI/CI.

What about Sadlers Wells??

[kimberley mine]

El Prado, Skip Trial. The venerable old Ascot Knight in Canada just misses the AEI/CI criterion.

Across the pond: Cadeaux Generaux, With Approval
In South America: Southern Halo
Down Under: Canny Lad

[pokeyman]

Yeah, it's hard to get the % of SW AND the higher AEI/CI ratio..truly the mark of a great stallion.

[Rokeby Forever]

COZZENE

[pokeyman]

COZZENE

I agree.

Now, if only his stud fee was reduced another $30,000....!! *grin*

[pokeyman]

Just based on the ability to get runners, I think Slew City Slew is a bargain.
And I would send lots of mares to Cozzene (even at his age and price) rather than some untested, unraced or unsound young stallion.

His AEI always drops below his CI until Lava Man can win again and drag it back up.......

[pokeyman]

Isn't it weird how these great stallions- Broad Brush, Cozzene, Rahy, Dynaformer, El Prado, etc are NOT sires of sires?

Another question- these stallions all truly improve their mares unlike AP Indy, Seeking the Gold, Hennessy, and the other big guns. Do you think if given, for example, AP Indy's book of mares the resulting foals by the above stallions would be overall much better? Afterall, they DO improve their mares......

[Roguelet]

Another question- these stallions all truly improve their mares unlike AP Indy, Seeking the Gold, Hennessy, and the other big guns. Do you think if given, for example, AP Indy's book of mares the resulting foals by the above stallions would be overall much better? Afterall, they DO improve their mares......

To play devil's advocate: Perhaps the better the mare, the less "room for improvement" there is regardless of who she's bred to... so perhaps the stallions who get the "best mares" don't improve them much because they're already working with above average mares. Obviously, I'm talking about "on average" and there are always exceptions, and I have no data, scientific or otherwise, to support my statement... I just felt like shooting from the hip for some reason.

[pokeyman]

Another question- these stallions all truly improve their mares unlike AP Indy, Seeking the Gold, Hennessy, and the other big guns. Do you think if given, for example, AP Indy's book of mares the resulting foals by the above stallions would be overall much better? Afterall, they DO improve their mares......

To play devil's advocate: Perhaps the better the mare, the less "room for improvement" there is regardless of who she's bred to... so perhaps the stallions who get the "best mares" don't improve them much because they're already working with above average mares. Obviously, I'm talking about "on average" and there are always exceptions, and I have no data, scientific or otherwise, to support my statement... I just felt like shooting from the hip for some reason.

Well, this would make sense except the truly awesome stallions DO improve a super great book of mares!!!! Think Northern Dancer, Mr. Prospector, Danzig, Storm Cat to name a few.....Books of mares with CI indexes in the fours and they consistently improve them.

[GreenThumb]

Waquoit!
Waquoit!
Waquoit!

[reenci]

crusader sword
Sire Summary

15 Crops Lifetime Current
Starters (/Foals) 78% 6%
Winners (/Foals) 62% 2%
Winners (/Starters) 80% 31%

Total Starts 8,307 214
Total Wins (/Starts) 12% 7%

Total Earnings $16,561,845 $239,930
Ave Earnings/Starter $51,434 $9,228
Ave Earnings/Start $1,994 $1,121
Median Earnings $25,985 $3,500

Blacktype Wnrs(/Foals) 3% 0%
Blacktype Wnrs(/Strs) 4% 0%
Blacktype Horses(/Foals) 7% 0%
Blacktype Horses(/Strs) 9% 0%

Sup Runners (/Foals) 3% 0%
Sup Runners (/Startrs) 3% 0%

Ave # Years Raced 3.18 3.77
Ave Starts/Year 8.12 8.23

All Foals Colts Fillies
Sire Production Index 1.13 1.12 1.14

i think a avg. earnings of 50,000 plus for a 1,000 stud fee is pretty good

[geowarrior]

I second Waquoit, he's in the twilight of his career, and I'd sure like to see him get some very good mares in his last couple of years.

[Rokeby Forever]

I think the recent retirement of Runaway Groom is a loss. He was a heck of a good sire for a long, long time.