grandson of A.P indy at stud

[loggerman71]

General thomas by old trieste out of affirmed mare stands in Northwest Iowa winner of $56,000 undachiever as race horse. If he had won more he wouldn't be standing in Iowa for $750. Multi mare discounts and discounts for mares with strong race records.

[Intrinsic Worth]

Why do people stand horses like this?

[springboro]

Why do people stand horses like this?

well, he surely isn't in the elite Kentucky group, but he's a well bred allowance winner and they do get opportunities in regional markets.

He's out of Affirmatively, a stakes producer from the immediate family of stallions Belong to Me, Premiership, Commemorate, and Persevered. And of course, this is the La Troienne direct line too.

He's likely to not make any big splashes, I agree... but perhaps he'll make a lil money for a nice Iowa family.

[geowarrior]

I agree with Springboro. This guy is nicely bred, great female family, Reines de Course from the second dam back to La Troienne, and the progeny of the dam (who is by Affirmed, an excellent broodmare sire) are all respectable money winners. The loss of Old Trieste was lamented, and here is a son of his with good female family. Not a big winner, but certainly captured a quality allowance at a good track. One cannot assume that lack of wins is indicative of the horse's quality - poor training or poor race placement can be responsible for that. Like many A.P. Indy descendants he seems bred for stamina. Nobody is trying to pretend that he's the next Storm Cat, but there are regional sires standing with worse breeding and worse race records.

[loggerman71]

I have seen people stand horses with good running record and no pedigree and no female family. General has successful sires on his dam side and if old treiste wouldn't died early he would have more sons of his standing at stand. To your question why people stand horses like this is because I would rather have a horse with a great pedigree and good dam side than one who has no pedigree and no dam side with a $200,000 or so winning record. Like I said if he won more he wouldn't be in Iowa for $750 if this horse tops $100,000 someone in kentucky takes on chance on him.

[habitat]

Loggerman71

After a view more posts you'll figure out that you dont have to answer baiting questions.

The first clue to look at is the poster's signature and if there is some dumb witticism you can be suspect.

There is some class on the forum if you decide to stick around. Hope you and your stallion find a mare or two.


Good Luck

[loggerman71]

look up a horse called cutluss he only won $76,000 out of 26 starts 7 wins 6 seconds 1 show, but if I recall he sired some pretty good race horses friendly
lover for one don't judge a book by the cover

[Rokeby Forever]

One could argue that Spectcular Bid shouldn't have been a sire. There wasn't a sire in his family and his first 4 dams collectively did nothing on the racetrack. Why was he syndicated for $22 Million?

Nobody knows from where a good stallion will arise, especially when colts have a strong female family. I wouldn't dismiss one based on a poor race record or because it was lightly raced.

[Maven]

I wouldn't dismiss one based on a poor race record or because it was lightly raced.

Yet you'll knock the first Unbridled's Song you see based on limited starts. At least be consistent, Rok!

[Pete]

Hi Loggerman,

First of all, congratulations on your new stallion and I wish you success with him. I’ve listed a few mental notes that I made while I was reviewing his pedigree and race record.

General Thomas is a total outcross through 5 generation (rare). This should allow some inbreeding without cramping the hybrid nature of the pedigrees. I used a mare I once owned, OUI MA CHERIE, as an example that you might want to look at for an interesting inbred mating.

General Thomas is a half brother to HARRY THE HAT, a PA based stallion by Seattle Slew (thus same sire line) who has gotten some notice for his stakes winners BETTY'S HAT and PRINCE JOSEPH from a limited number of foals (many of his foals were never race trained). His book has increased to as much as 50 covers in 2005 (but only 22 reports and 17 live foals).

His sisters that have been bred have had many useful winners with several stakes caliber horses mixed in and they have been by sires that show that this family inherits affinities. Inherited affinities are ‘nicks’ that carry through generations. For your use with General Thomas this is a good guideline to daughters of stallions that might prove useful to you.

His family is a nice and deep one tracing to the great foundation mare LA TROIENNE through her excellent daughter, BIG HURRY. Mares in this family have enjoyed better sires but it’s positive to see that many non-stakes horses (in recent generations) have been good earners that have shown some soundness on the track. In a regional program this is a big plus if he can get sound winners that add to his numbers.

Carson City, Awesome Again, Seattle Slew (less so because it’s General Thomas’ sire line) and Northern Dancer lines have noticeably outperformed Turn-To (as an example) when bred to his dam or sisters. SCORPION was a G1 winner by Seattle Slew out of his half sister, Petiteness, herself a daughter of Chief’s Crown (Danzig).

Petiteness is a key mare to look at in this family because she shows a successful mating between the Slew sire line and a Danzig line mare. Belong To Me is a son of Danzig out of General Thomas’ female family so his daughters would be a natural fit.

One of the difficulties in standing a regional stallion is that there’s often little choice in the selection of bloodlines, you take the mares that are offered. The fact that General Thomas’ family shows inherited affinities inflates the value of pedigree. I usually value pedigree as 10% of the potential foal and up to 25% conditionally. Though it doesn’t sound like much it will be if you improve your pedigree by 20% and add 2% to the quality of your foal because that can equate to (about) a 10 length advantage at a flat mile.

I would look for mares from the following sire lines: Deputy Minister, Carson City, Seattle Slew, Danzig and especially Belong To Me, Northern Dancer and selected Mr. Prospector lines like Cryptoclearance (who lacks Turn-To but has a strong affinity for him and is from the same sire line as Deputy Minister).

Hope this helps and best of luck.

Regards,

Pete

[Hold Your Peace]

Glad to know the whereabouts of that horse.

Old Trieste looked like he had quite a stallion career ahead of him before his untimely death and that's a great family and while he might not have been a stakes horse allowance winners on major circuits are often more talented than horses who earn black type at minor tracks so that colt absolutely had some ability even if he wasn't a great horse.

He was bred and raced by Harbor View (Affirmed's breeeder and owner) and I was at Calder, as was Patrice Wolfson of Harbor View, when that colt's half-sister The Legend Grows broke her maiden first time out at Calder on Christmas Eve. The Legend Grows (by Siphon) is trained by Marty Wolfson (son of Louis Wolfson who is the other half of Harbor View) and while The Legend Grows hasn't had the easiest time with allowance company at Gulfstream just you wait until Calder gets going in late April. I'd be shocked if Marty (who won the BC Mile with Miesque's Approval last year) doesn't get that filly some black type in one of the many, many $40,000 stakes at Calder.

[Sysonby]

One could argue that Spectcular Bid shouldn't have been a sire. There wasn't a sire in his family and his first 4 dams collectively did nothing on the racetrack. Why was he syndicated for $22 Million?

.

One of the best racehorses in history shouldn't have been a sire? Where are all the sires in Danzig's family? Where are all those sires under Distorted Humor's first 4 dams?

Also interesting but true fact: Spectacular was second in the My Fair Lady Stakes on the California Fair circuit (I want to say Stockton but it might have been Vallejo). The horse that beat her was named Procne--the dam of Flying Paster. So that cheap California fair stakes resulted in the two best 3 year olds of 1979, one of which is became a legend. I remember someone digging up the picture of the finish line of that little $12,500 stakes pre Derby that year.

They can come from anywhere

[Pete]

Hi Sysonby,

Good post.

Hold Your Peace, I like your nick...appropriate on a forum with a little too much testosterone.

Rokeby, you know how GREAT The Incomparable Spectacular Bid was as a race horse so any argument that he shouldn't have been used as a sire would have to be based on the current knowledge that he wasn't very successful.

I had begun my reply to Loggerman speaking about Danzig, the poster boy for no pedigree sires, but found things too like in General Thomas. Danzig's appeal was that he was a son of Northern Dancer, his speed and potential wouldn't have meant much otherwise. Not only are there no stallions in Danzig's pedigree, other than his dam (at the time he went to stud) there wasn't any black-type.

Pedigree sells stallions but it's mainly a commercial appliance. Don't get me wrong, I'd rather have a good pedigree than a weak one in a stallion I'm breeding with but it's not a reliable predictor of potential quality.

What, or WHO is in the pedigree is far more important that how it looks as a catalog page. There's even evidence that WHERE you were foaled has an impact as well.

Regards,

Pete