bred mare to In Excess

[Mac]

Am new to breeding. After my crash-research last year in pedigrees, I went with In Excess for my first mare, an old Bold Ruckus mare. The foal was born last month and thankfully he looks good and is a shining picture of health in spite of her age (21). Wondered what some of you pedigree gurus think of the cross. Her name is Andrea Ruckus, and I want to race the foal. Her prior colts out of Silver Deputy and a couple other sires have earned out between $90,000 to $420,000 per runner, with one stakes winner who also has a world record in the mile and five-sixteenths, a sort of obscure distance. I couldn't afford Silver Deputy and he was booked full anyway. In Excess has only had one starter out of a Bold Ruckus mare, and that is Excess Summer, who is around $675,000 in earnings. I primarily went with In Excess because of wanting to try an outcross thing and because he is such a good sire. Any thoughts? Also, I am thinking of My Friend Max in Louisiana for this year's breeding.

[CA Michael]

Love the cross. I tried to buy that mare last year, not long after you apparently did. Bold Ruckus and Silver Deputy are two of my favorite broodmare sires--I own two by BR and three by SD and would buy more if I could.

CARO over BOLD RULER produced Winning Colors; the world record setting horse Scottsbluff (1:00 1/5 for 5 1/2 furlongs on turf) is another Siberian Express over Bold Ruler cross.

My only question about this cross relates to bone. In Excess, for all his strengths as a stallion, is well known for throwing light boned horses. If your mare transmits better legs to her foals, you might be one of the lucky ones to have a sound In Excess foal.

[Mac]

The mare is large-boned and the foal (so far) seems to take after her. I went with the breeding hoping that her large bone would transmit to the colt. Thanks for making me feel better about spending the $$$$. Lucky you for having some Silver Deputy's....what a nice sire HE is!

[louis finochio]

Most of In Excess progeny win early and then they are injured, and dont average many lifetime starts.

Lets hope your mare will transmit her strong bone and breed out the inherited weakness of In Excess, Good Luck Louis.

[Mac]

Very good point, Louis, and I am hoping the same, that the colt with get the large bone from his dam. Bold Ruckus mares (I have heard) are generally durable with a lot of starts in them, possibly accounting for all the years Excess Summer has been running and winning. He is one of the few In Excess'es that is truly durable.

[halo]

Im not sure I agree with most of In Excess foals breaking down early. A look at his progeny list, from this site, shows many foals making over 10 starts (not that that shows durability, but its more than a couple) and a number making over 20 starts.

[louis finochio]

Halo: I have an edge on most Tb breeders, as I am always talking to trainers about which stallion produce sound individuals.

In Excess is on the red flag list, as most all of the trainers I talked to have a negative input on In Excess.

It is best to see what type of conformation faults these unsound stallions are throwing, when you observe them in the flesh rather thumbing through the those progeny reports.

[Mac]

Aside from "light" bone, what conformation faults might In Excess have?

Thanks

Mac

[Maven]

Im not sure I agree with most of In Excess foals breaking down early. A look at his progeny list, from this site, shows many foals making over 10 starts (not that that shows durability, but its more than a couple) and a number making over 20 starts.

I actually agree with you. I think he is a little light of bone which is a Grey Sovereign line trait, but I think the real issue their absolute brilliance even when they're rather immature physically. Like so many, they're pushed before they're ready just because they can win.

[Sysonby]

Aside from "light" bone, what conformation faults might In Excess have?

They are often offset and incorrect through the knees.

[Cathyleabo]

I bred my Quarter Horse mare, Inherit the Win to Ex Marks the Cop by InExcess. (Beckner Farms, Jefferson Oregon)
"Fly" is gorgeous, big hip and chest with good legs. Classic QH out of a smallish mare and a TB! Great disposition, eager to please and can't stand to have another horse ahead of him.

My daughter has broke and trained many of "Cops" offspring, and her opinion is that they need extra time to grow up, physically and mentally.

We xrayed our QH colt a week ago and took him out of training for summer racing.
His knees are still wide open, and we don't want to ruin his legs. We'll try again late summer for the fall futurities.

I know that most owners don't have that luxury, we are very lucky to be able to do that. I think we will have a horse with a longer career for having made that decision, though.

[CA Michael]

cathyleabo, your daughter sounds like a good old fashioned horsewoman. Wish we had more of them! It's unfortunate that your filly's sire didn't enjoy the benefit of this kind of training--no question that he would have lasted longer than he did. As I recall he broke his maiden in a track record :21 seconds, but subsequently raced only a few times each year for 3-4 years. He was an extremely talented and fast colt, and being out of a mare by the 10 furlong horse CRYSTAL WATER he had a license to improve with age and distance.

Such is the fate of many, many other sons and daughters of IN EXCESS. Their quickness becomes their undoing at the hands of their foolish owners and trainers.

IN EXCESS himself was a late developing front runner--NOT a two year old. He didn't get good until he was four years old, when he was a multiple G1 SW. And while he could sprint, his forte was stretching his speed over 8 to 10 furlongs. Trained by the relatively unknown Bruce Jackson, In Excess proved himself on both coasts, on dirt, grass and mud, almost always in wire-to-wire fashion.

It was indeed unfortunate for him that his original owner, Jack Munari of Paso Robles, gave control of the horse to the quarter horse triumverate of Scoop Vessels, Bob Baffert and Mike Pegram. That group's tunnel-visioned training and racing program ruined more In Excess foals than most realize. The first good In Excess horse, Indian Charlie, broke his maiden at 2 at Del Mar by many lengths in exceptionally fast time. Thankfully, he came up with a small bone chip which forced him into a long fall-winter vacation. Upon his reappearance at 3, he won three more consecutive races, including the Santa Anita Derby (9 furlongs), and in Baffert's mania to win the KY Derby, suffered a career ending injury in that race while finishing second. As a stallion, Indian Charlie is also known for siring fast horses, but fortunately many of them have gone to trainers other than Baffert and his ilk. His Fleet Indian (last year's champion mare) wasn't raced at 2, and lightly at 3 and 4, but came on big time last year at age 5. That's how the In Excess' (and others from this sire line) want to be handled.

[Mac]

I always wondered why so many in excesses made so few starts...there are some interesting theories here. So who the heck should I go with IF my baby colt makes it to the age of 2? I'm not sure that Texas trainers offer some of the best choices if they are in a sprint-oriented market, although to be fair, I haven't researched any of them. Overall, I want the colt to have the ability to become a top distance horse ASSUMING he has any ability whatsoever. As to the more nationally competitive trainers or even among more regional type trainers, who can do the most with a horse's talent and with less injuries? Any thoughts?

[CA Michael]

Mac, are you planning to sell or race? If you sell, you're stuck with the new owner's choice of trainers. That's my primary reason NOT to sell yearlings---it kills me to watch the butchers ply their trade on them. If you plan to race this foal, you have plenty of time to develop a short list of possible trainers and observe them in action.

First things first. Let's get the mare in foal first!

[Mac]

CA Michael,

The foal has been born and is five weeks old, but yes I have plenty of time to research trainers. Am planning to race only.