We heard a lot about the Marino babies last year. How is this crop doing? Anybody have one?
This horse really ought to be standing in Ky. Could he be a great California Storm Cat?
How are the Marino Marini babies this year?
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Rokeby Forever
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"A great California Storm Cat"....has there been a "Great" one anywhere?
Why would Marino Marini be any better than Stormed, America's Storm, or Ancient Art?
Why would Marino Marini be any better than Stormed, America's Storm, or Ancient Art?
What synthetics are to California racing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gb0mxcpPOU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gb0mxcpPOU
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fastappy
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Marino Marini
[quote="Rokeby Forever"]"A great California Storm Cat"....has there been a "Great" one anywhere?
Why would Marino Marini be any better than Stormed, America's Storm, or Ancient Art?[/quote]
OK, I'll take the bait! For one thing Marino Marini is out of Halo American, a G1 winning mare who started 40 times won 15 times and hit the board 25 times with earnings of 1.5 million.
Marino Marini is by Leading Sire Storm Cat.
Marino Marini is G1 placed as a two year old and three year old and has won on turf & dirt, was a stakes winner or placed as a 2 year old, three year old, and four year old. Marino Marini is a half to a G2 placed filly.
I would say those are pretty good credentials for a horse standing for $7,500. Your slam....ur reply please.
Why would Marino Marini be any better than Stormed, America's Storm, or Ancient Art?[/quote]
OK, I'll take the bait! For one thing Marino Marini is out of Halo American, a G1 winning mare who started 40 times won 15 times and hit the board 25 times with earnings of 1.5 million.
Marino Marini is by Leading Sire Storm Cat.
Marino Marini is G1 placed as a two year old and three year old and has won on turf & dirt, was a stakes winner or placed as a 2 year old, three year old, and four year old. Marino Marini is a half to a G2 placed filly.
I would say those are pretty good credentials for a horse standing for $7,500. Your slam....ur reply please.
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Rokeby Forever
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Hey Fastappy...always good to see ya!
Cat Thief is out of a multiple Graded winning Alydar mare that earned over $600,000 through age five and he is a full brother to a stakes placed mare.
Cat Thief's 2nd dam won 22 races and was an Eclipse Award winning older mare.
Cat Thief won a Grade II at two and finished 3rd in the BC Juvie. He won the BC Classic as a three year old and placed in the Whitney Stakes, Clark Handicap, and Oaklawn Park Handicap as a four year old.
Cat Thief also stands for $7,500....and has an AEI of 1.25 against a 2.00 CI.
Slam back...your move, amigo!
Cat Thief is out of a multiple Graded winning Alydar mare that earned over $600,000 through age five and he is a full brother to a stakes placed mare.
Cat Thief's 2nd dam won 22 races and was an Eclipse Award winning older mare.
Cat Thief won a Grade II at two and finished 3rd in the BC Juvie. He won the BC Classic as a three year old and placed in the Whitney Stakes, Clark Handicap, and Oaklawn Park Handicap as a four year old.
Cat Thief also stands for $7,500....and has an AEI of 1.25 against a 2.00 CI.
Slam back...your move, amigo!
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fastappy
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Marino Marini
Hi Rokeby, always good to read your posts. Well, since were talking about value at $7,500..... remember this....
Rokeby Forever
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Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 12:42 am Post subject:
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Looking at his overall, Roar is still a great value at $7,500. He gets 78% starters, 61% runners, 8% SWs, and his runners average $43,000. His AEI is better than his CI, as well...so he's been moving mares up over his career.
He's from one of the finiest broodmare families in the history of the sport (Rokeby, of course!), and with the enhanced purses in the Cal Bred program, I think he's a really "breed to race" sire, as ASB says.
That said,
Roar does have 7% (now) stakes winners from starters but many of those graded stakes winners are in South America where they have G1 purses as small as $36,000 (less than a stakes on the Ca. fairs). His runners (lifetime) do earn $43,000 but his median is $15,000, so half of those 434 starters (217) have made $15,000 or less lifetime.
His avg. earnings per start is $2,479 which reflects those S.A. graded earnings. His foals win at 15% (very average) and his leading earner is the iron horse "Coach Jimi Lee" who at 7 years old has just won the Iowa Sprint and has lifetime earnings of $860, 498 (B.H.) His current year earner (Roarofvictory) has made $27,760 thus far this year. No millionaire at this point, but Roar no longer has the advantage of Kentucky mares.
I suspect Marino Marini will have no problem meeting your expectations and being that they're at the same farm (Rancho San Miguel) he will have equal opportunity. I believe Roar could be solid at 5K.
Da ball is in your court!
Rokeby Forever
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Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 12:42 am Post subject:
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Looking at his overall, Roar is still a great value at $7,500. He gets 78% starters, 61% runners, 8% SWs, and his runners average $43,000. His AEI is better than his CI, as well...so he's been moving mares up over his career.
He's from one of the finiest broodmare families in the history of the sport (Rokeby, of course!), and with the enhanced purses in the Cal Bred program, I think he's a really "breed to race" sire, as ASB says.
That said,
Roar does have 7% (now) stakes winners from starters but many of those graded stakes winners are in South America where they have G1 purses as small as $36,000 (less than a stakes on the Ca. fairs). His runners (lifetime) do earn $43,000 but his median is $15,000, so half of those 434 starters (217) have made $15,000 or less lifetime.
His avg. earnings per start is $2,479 which reflects those S.A. graded earnings. His foals win at 15% (very average) and his leading earner is the iron horse "Coach Jimi Lee" who at 7 years old has just won the Iowa Sprint and has lifetime earnings of $860, 498 (B.H.) His current year earner (Roarofvictory) has made $27,760 thus far this year. No millionaire at this point, but Roar no longer has the advantage of Kentucky mares.
I suspect Marino Marini will have no problem meeting your expectations and being that they're at the same farm (Rancho San Miguel) he will have equal opportunity. I believe Roar could be solid at 5K.
Da ball is in your court!
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Rokeby Forever
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OK, Fastappy wiseguy,
At least once a week, someone bites me on the ass with Roar. Grrr!!!!!
To his defense, he does have a lifetime 1.66 AEI against a 1.49 CI...so he hasn't had the greatest mares during his career, but he's moved them up. And, except for Distorted Humor, how many sons of Forty Niner stand for more than $10,000?
As far as Storm Cat success at Rancho San Miguel, how would you rate Storm Creek? He comes from a nice family, althought he didn't accomplish all that much in his racing career. However, at $5,000, he's got a 1.06 AEI (I had to do a doubletake!) with mares having a lifetime 1.58 CI. Roar's numbers tower over Storm Creek's, so I wouldn't be so hasty to drop Roar to the same $5,000 level. And so what if Coach Jimi Lee was in the Iowa Sprint - he won it, didn't he? Storm Creek is up the creek! LOL!
I actually think that at $6,000, Memo is a good value in California. He's had some of the worst books of mares imaginable and he pops up with alot of good ones. I don't know how sound they are, but the Memo's can run.
Rokeby returns the volley...your move, Andre Agassi.
At least once a week, someone bites me on the ass with Roar. Grrr!!!!!
To his defense, he does have a lifetime 1.66 AEI against a 1.49 CI...so he hasn't had the greatest mares during his career, but he's moved them up. And, except for Distorted Humor, how many sons of Forty Niner stand for more than $10,000?
As far as Storm Cat success at Rancho San Miguel, how would you rate Storm Creek? He comes from a nice family, althought he didn't accomplish all that much in his racing career. However, at $5,000, he's got a 1.06 AEI (I had to do a doubletake!) with mares having a lifetime 1.58 CI. Roar's numbers tower over Storm Creek's, so I wouldn't be so hasty to drop Roar to the same $5,000 level. And so what if Coach Jimi Lee was in the Iowa Sprint - he won it, didn't he? Storm Creek is up the creek! LOL!
I actually think that at $6,000, Memo is a good value in California. He's had some of the worst books of mares imaginable and he pops up with alot of good ones. I don't know how sound they are, but the Memo's can run.
Rokeby returns the volley...your move, Andre Agassi.
Last edited by Rokeby Forever on Sun Apr 29, 2007 12:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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fastappy
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Sorry about that Roar thingy, Rokeby. In regards to Storm Creek it just means he should go a little cheaper on the fee. I think Storm Creek is probably better as a turf sire. His progeny have average collective earnings over 2 million the past few years, but the win percentage is 12% (low average).
Memo seems like a good deal on the face of it. The areas where he is lacking is 1) His foals average 13 starts per starter (below average when utilizing Thoroughbred Times data) & 2) His starters from foals is 59% also below the 70% avg. for the breed. I have not seen Memo in person but I suspect that he has conformation and/or soundness issues that are passed onto the foals accounting for the lower stats in these areas.
Memo raced from ages 2-3 (unraced as a 4 year old) and again from 5-7 years of age, starting 34 times, winning 13 and placing 17 times with earnings of $814K.
At 20 years of age and a fee of 6K (the magic number is 5 in California) he probably will not get better books. Averaging 30 mares per year, he has done quite well. I noticed that a few mares (of varying bloodlines) that produced one stakes horse usually produced full sibling stakes horses when bred back to Memo. So a few mares account for the majority of his stakes horses and if you are so lucky you should breed back to Memo.
Though Chilean bred his pedigree is very American. His sire Mocito Guapo (Also the sire of Malek) is probably unappealing to many California breeders and maybe accounts for the small books of mares (average 30 mares booked over the past 4 seasons). I don't know how he does in the sales ring in comparison to other stallions in his price range. I don't know his median earnings as the CTBA does not utilize this stat in their stallion directory. Overall I like Memo. His foals win at 18% from starts, his avg. earnings are $53K, his AEI is 1.56 vs CI 1.19, but I would have to know his median earnings and look closely at the most successful breedings to take a stab at it.
Match Point!
Memo seems like a good deal on the face of it. The areas where he is lacking is 1) His foals average 13 starts per starter (below average when utilizing Thoroughbred Times data) & 2) His starters from foals is 59% also below the 70% avg. for the breed. I have not seen Memo in person but I suspect that he has conformation and/or soundness issues that are passed onto the foals accounting for the lower stats in these areas.
Memo raced from ages 2-3 (unraced as a 4 year old) and again from 5-7 years of age, starting 34 times, winning 13 and placing 17 times with earnings of $814K.
At 20 years of age and a fee of 6K (the magic number is 5 in California) he probably will not get better books. Averaging 30 mares per year, he has done quite well. I noticed that a few mares (of varying bloodlines) that produced one stakes horse usually produced full sibling stakes horses when bred back to Memo. So a few mares account for the majority of his stakes horses and if you are so lucky you should breed back to Memo.
Though Chilean bred his pedigree is very American. His sire Mocito Guapo (Also the sire of Malek) is probably unappealing to many California breeders and maybe accounts for the small books of mares (average 30 mares booked over the past 4 seasons). I don't know how he does in the sales ring in comparison to other stallions in his price range. I don't know his median earnings as the CTBA does not utilize this stat in their stallion directory. Overall I like Memo. His foals win at 18% from starts, his avg. earnings are $53K, his AEI is 1.56 vs CI 1.19, but I would have to know his median earnings and look closely at the most successful breedings to take a stab at it.
Match Point!
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Rokeby Forever
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I'll forgive you, Fastappy. But I WON'T forgive the smart alec that PMed me and wrote, "Fastappy stuck it to you with you with Roar! HAHAHA!!" I'll get that guy when I see him! Grrr!!!!
If you think 13 starts/foal is a poor number, take a look at another Storm Cat son, Tale Of The Cat. He gets a good percentage to the races, but his foals average only 10 starts. At a $37,500 fee, that $21,000 median/runner is pretty scary!
Memo's sell OK against the stud fee....he's had 79 yearlings average $19,567, and 26 two year olds average $27,296. For a $6,000 stallion, Memo gets 6% stakes winners...that's a pretty high number in his price range. His median runner earns only $15,421, but his offspring in Chile might have run for $300 purses (beats me!).
What I've noticed is that it's very difficult for a horse that never raced in California to do very well as a sire in California. Benchmark is a pretty good example....he raced in California, and by staying in the CA Bred program, he's had a really good career (especially compared to high profile Alydar sons); the same can be said of Swiss Yodeler and Bertrando. (In Excess was a CA based horse that ran on both coasts and he's gotten a ton of support, so I wouldn't include him). However, really nice horses that didn't race in California (at least on a regular basis) like Formal Gold, Comic Strip, and Beau Genius have no success at all. Kelly Kip figures to offer speed to the CA Bred program, but I'm not sure he'll get any opportunity.
I guess anything beats Houston. LOL!!
Back to deuce....your serve, Jimmy Connors.
If you think 13 starts/foal is a poor number, take a look at another Storm Cat son, Tale Of The Cat. He gets a good percentage to the races, but his foals average only 10 starts. At a $37,500 fee, that $21,000 median/runner is pretty scary!
Memo's sell OK against the stud fee....he's had 79 yearlings average $19,567, and 26 two year olds average $27,296. For a $6,000 stallion, Memo gets 6% stakes winners...that's a pretty high number in his price range. His median runner earns only $15,421, but his offspring in Chile might have run for $300 purses (beats me!).
What I've noticed is that it's very difficult for a horse that never raced in California to do very well as a sire in California. Benchmark is a pretty good example....he raced in California, and by staying in the CA Bred program, he's had a really good career (especially compared to high profile Alydar sons); the same can be said of Swiss Yodeler and Bertrando. (In Excess was a CA based horse that ran on both coasts and he's gotten a ton of support, so I wouldn't include him). However, really nice horses that didn't race in California (at least on a regular basis) like Formal Gold, Comic Strip, and Beau Genius have no success at all. Kelly Kip figures to offer speed to the CA Bred program, but I'm not sure he'll get any opportunity.
I guess anything beats Houston. LOL!!
Back to deuce....your serve, Jimmy Connors.
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Intrinsic Worth
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Rokeby Forever wrote:IHowever, really nice horses that didn't race in California (at least on a regular basis) like Formal Gold, Comic Strip, and Beau Genius have no success at all. Kelly Kip figures to offer speed to the CA Bred program, but I'm not sure he'll get any opportunity.
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Wow, you don't give a stallion much of a chance, do you? Formal Gold's first full crop of Calbreds are yearlings this year. He did have about 10 Calbred 2 year olds and one has started once and run unplaced in those 2 furlong races that you love so well.
Beau Genius is not my favorite stallion but siring Beau's Town probably takes him out of the "no success at all" in California category. Also, one of our forumites bred graded SP Press Camp using Comic Strip and the horse that just beat Declan's Moon this week (Corazondelcampeon) is another Comic Strip.
Finally you might want to keep in mind that these are $4-5000 stallions and perhaps they should be judged in that context.
Thanks for the nod Sysonby. BTW, in about three hours I'm going to Winstar to watch Press Camp get bred to Speightstown. She came up with an ankle chip, so it's time for her to go be a broodmare.
Back to the Marino Marini question - if the 2003 Malibu had been one jump shorter, we'd be talking about how the stallion would fit in the Kentucky market at $15,000 (and I would have cashed a nice bet at 32-1).
Marino Marini has all the credential to be a top California sire - race record, phenomenal pedigree, an owner with a tremendous mare band and a great farm. I liked him enough to send Press Camp's dam to his twice (unfortunately, the first one died as a foal, but I have a knockout of a colt this year), as well as several other mares. I have yet to see him throw a bad foal.
I know there will be a few at the October Barretts sale (including one of mine), as well as at least one at Keeneland September. It'll be interesting to see how the Kentucky market values him.
Back to the Marino Marini question - if the 2003 Malibu had been one jump shorter, we'd be talking about how the stallion would fit in the Kentucky market at $15,000 (and I would have cashed a nice bet at 32-1).
Marino Marini has all the credential to be a top California sire - race record, phenomenal pedigree, an owner with a tremendous mare band and a great farm. I liked him enough to send Press Camp's dam to his twice (unfortunately, the first one died as a foal, but I have a knockout of a colt this year), as well as several other mares. I have yet to see him throw a bad foal.
I know there will be a few at the October Barretts sale (including one of mine), as well as at least one at Keeneland September. It'll be interesting to see how the Kentucky market values him.
petersd wrote:Marino Marini has all the credential to be a top California sire - race record, phenomenal pedigree, an owner with a tremendous mare band and a great farm. I liked him enough to send Press Camp's dam to his twice (unfortunately, the first one died as a foal, but I have a knockout of a colt this year), as well as several other mares. I have yet to see him throw a bad foal.
I've seen quite a few too and I thought they were nice bodied racy looking foals. He really appears to be putting a stamp on them.
Another thing you mentioned about the support he's being given is so important for a young stallion and it reminds me a bit of how Golden Eagle made General Meeting and River Edge made Benchmark. From all appearances, the farm is taking a big swing with Marino Marini and they've invested heavily in mares and they appear ready to race some of the babies and give them every advantage. Most California stallions don't cover mares that can sell for $87,000 in Kentucky but Marino did. If he fails, it won't be for lack of effort or opportunity.
Last edited by Sysonby on Sun Apr 29, 2007 9:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Rokeby Forever
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Sysonby....the word I used is "like" them. But let's face it...how much support do East Coast sires get? They stand for $4,000 in an effort to get mares to them, not that $4,000 is all they're worth. I thought Kelly Kip did a fine job with the backyard mares he was given in Florida.
I personally loved Formal Gold. He was trained by one of the real nice guys in racing (Bill Perry), and Formal Gold ran some "lights out" races when when beat Skip Away. It's too bad the horse was injured before making the trip to Dubai.
If Brother Derek stands in California next year, do you think he'll stand for just $5,000 and go unsupported? If he stood next year for $7,500, who would get more support - Roar, Deputy Commander, or Brother Derek? Hmmm...
PS: Peter - good luck with Press Camp!
I personally loved Formal Gold. He was trained by one of the real nice guys in racing (Bill Perry), and Formal Gold ran some "lights out" races when when beat Skip Away. It's too bad the horse was injured before making the trip to Dubai.
If Brother Derek stands in California next year, do you think he'll stand for just $5,000 and go unsupported? If he stood next year for $7,500, who would get more support - Roar, Deputy Commander, or Brother Derek? Hmmm...
PS: Peter - good luck with Press Camp!
cal sires
The CA. market is hard to figure out from year to year, but it is hard to ignore Formal Gold as a good solid sire. Probably hurts him that he didn't race much in CA., true, but still a nice horse.
Marino Marini could be a good one. Like all Storm Cats some of the legs are less that perfect, but if they can run a little, it could get interesting for him.
There are a couple of nice Storm Creek two year olds around the country, it is being said. If he could get a few nice runners again, it would go a long way to reviving him.
On a different but related topic, did the farm who owns Marino sustain any financial liability with the whole Corslew episode? You will recall they shipped him to Victory Rose to stand and he savaged the owner up there.
I hope they were not hurt any by it. They are really very nice people. Also glad EJ is ok now too.
Marino Marini could be a good one. Like all Storm Cats some of the legs are less that perfect, but if they can run a little, it could get interesting for him.
There are a couple of nice Storm Creek two year olds around the country, it is being said. If he could get a few nice runners again, it would go a long way to reviving him.
On a different but related topic, did the farm who owns Marino sustain any financial liability with the whole Corslew episode? You will recall they shipped him to Victory Rose to stand and he savaged the owner up there.
I hope they were not hurt any by it. They are really very nice people. Also glad EJ is ok now too.
Rokeby Forever wrote:
If Brother Derek stands in California next year, do you think he'll stand for just $5,000 and go unsupported? If he stood next year for $7,500, who would get more support - Roar, Deputy Commander, or Brother Derek? Hmmm...
No contest--Roar would win hands down if his fertility stays reasonable. The California market is not Kentucky. From what I've seen and heard, freshman sires get penalized out here unless you engage in heavy promotions or you practically give it away. Horsemen in California prefer the tried and true preferably as cheaply as possible.
Besides I think $7500 seems a little ambitious for Brother Derek at this point when for the same money you can go to better bred and/or more accomplished stallions like Marino Marini, Skimming or Good Journey and for less you can go to accomplished stallions and/or runners like Memo, Silic, Singletary, Siberian Summer etc.
FWIW.