Pedigree Query

As a stallion.. he was one of those horses you just assume is going to be the next "big thing" i suppose.

All things being equal, I prefer Mineshaft to Mindshaft

I preferred the Mineshaft offspring I saw, as a whole, to the Empire Makers. But, I liked the Vindications better than both. Considering that Empire Maker got better mares, it looked like Mineshaft made more of the opportunities he got. I think I'm going to reserve my judgement until he gets some runners.

I'm sure that Mr Farish is supporting Mineshaft as best he can - he doesn't want another Lemon Drop Kid on his hands.

He'd be worth considering at around $5,000 but at $100,000 it's insanity of hype run amok. He was nothing in Europe so they brought him stateside... "he got good" liked the dirt surfaces... found the competition easy(look back at what he beat) and the rest is the Ky. breeding hype machine at full tilt.


AP Indy has FAR to many duds at stud to trust Mineshaft as a "sure thing" or even close to a "sure thing". Besides, what a horse does on the track has NOTHING to do with what he'll do in the breeding shed(see: Citation / Spectacular Bid / Alysheba among others). In regards to new studs.... ALWAYS be from Missouri(show me state) until they prove otherwise.

horsenuts wrote:He'd be worth considering at around $5,000 but at $100,000 it's insanity of hype run amok. He was nothing in Europe so they brought him stateside... "he got good" liked the dirt surfaces... found the competition easy(look back at what he beat) and the rest is the Ky. breeding hype machine at full tilt.


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$5000? If I can get to Mineshaft for $30,000, sign me up--and I don't even like the horse!

Truth is, the $100,000 was because other stallions (notably Empire Maker) were getting $100,000. I actually thought Bernardini's connections showed remarkable restraint to keep it at a mere $100K. I also think these are fees primarily set for commercial considerations and in that light, with a $270,000 average and a $200,000 median, Mineshaft was probably priced right.

Sysonby wrote:

horsenuts wrote:He'd be worth considering at around $5,000 but at $100,000 it's insanity of hype run amok. He was nothing in Europe so they brought him stateside... "he got good" liked the dirt surfaces... found the competition easy(look back at what he beat) and the rest is the Ky. breeding hype machine at full tilt.


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$5000? If I can get to Mineshaft for $30,000, sign me up--and I don't even like the horse!

Truth is, the $100,000 was because other stallions (notably Empire Maker) were getting $100,000. I actually thought Bernardini's connections showed remarkable restraint to keep it at a mere $100K. I also think these are fees primarily set for commercial considerations and in that light, with a $270,000 average and a $200,000 median, Mineshaft was probably priced right.

I base what a stud actually does first and foremost.... not on what the perception is i.e. sales prices. Somebody is going about this all backwards and since people are able to sell these offspring by unproven stallions for 6 and even 7 figures on occasion I guess it's me. But I'm only concerned with performance and that is never known until said horses actually race. Amazes me what people pay for an unproven commodity when there are so many proven commodities to breed to for FAR less i.e. Silver Deputy at $30,000.. Smart Strike at $75,000 etc. A great racehorse does not a stallion make.

Look at Vindications sales averages, though. His fee when those foals were conceived was half Mineshaft's and his numbers were better. $75K would've been a little more realistic for Mineshaft.

When he's standing in front of you Mineshaft is STUNNING. I was really impressed with him.....HE thinks he's worth every penny of the $100K!

sunday_silence wrote:Look at Vindications sales averages, though. His fee when those foals were conceived was half Mineshaft's and his numbers were better. $75K would've been a little more realistic for Mineshaft.

Yeah if you are a stallion manager with a crystal ball But based on their relative accomplishments as well as promise and pedigree etc, Mineshaft arguably deserved to have a higher fee.

Is he worth $100K when Pulpit has been standing for $80,000?

horsenuts wrote:
I base what a stud actually does first and foremost.... not on what the perception is i.e. sales prices. Somebody is going about this all backwards and since people are able to sell these offspring by unproven stallions for 6 and even 7 figures on occasion I guess it's me. But I'm only concerned with performance and that is never known until said horses actually race. Amazes me what people pay for an unproven commodity when there are so many proven commodities to breed to for FAR less i.e. Silver Deputy at $30,000.. Smart Strike at $75,000 etc. A great racehorse does not a stallion make.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion and to go to stallions that you believe will suit your budget and program the best. But there is a dollars and cents reality out there regarding new sires. You only get one shot to be in a stallion's first crop and that is when buyers in general will inspect his foals most keenly and you may make a once in a lifetime score like some "little guys" did with Hook and Ladders and Whywhywhys (and bigger guys made bloody fortunes with Vindications). You can hate the trend or the mindset, you can certainly refuse to follow it, but that hasn't stopped some people from exploiting it to make a lot of money--which of course interests other breeders and drives those fees higher.

Sysonby wrote:

sunday_silence wrote:Look at Vindications sales averages, though. His fee when those foals were conceived was half Mineshaft's and his numbers were better. $75K would've been a little more realistic for Mineshaft.

Yeah if you are a stallion manager with a crystal ball But based on their relative accomplishments as well as promise and pedigree etc, Mineshaft arguably deserved to have a higher fee.

Mineshaft's race record was more impressive, I agree, but there is an obsession with precocious 2-year-olds, so Vindication did have a lot going for him. I like that Vindication is actually by Seattle Slew, a sire of sires. A.P. Indy hasn't been on that level. But, Mineshaft's female family is more impressive. Both are big, very good-looking horses (so is Empire Maker). But, I've always liked Vindication better of the two.

Rokeby Forever wrote:Is he worth $100K when Pulpit has been standing for $80,000?

Pulpit is the quintessential overrated A P Indy--and I say this really needing some Pulpits to do well as there are three of them that are very closely related to a yearling I have.

But I still think considering the opportunities he's had that he is wildly overrated.

Rokeby Forever wrote:Is he worth $100K when Pulpit has been standing for $80,000?

Neither one are worth their fee. Pulpit should be standing for around $50,000 based on his AEI / CI #s (talk about an overrated sire whew...) and Mineshaft should have the last zero dropped for a realistic fee until he proves otherwise. But again.... it's all about perception and hype in Ky. and inside the sales ring there is very little room for reality in the breeding industry..... though that has not always been the case but has been the trend since commercial breeding became so dominant around 35 years ago.