Pedigree Query

OK, let's all admit it-----A.I. is used extensively in the U.S. Even though the Jockey Club strictly prohibits its use, except as an immediate backup to a live cover, many farms (small and large) use the BIG SLEEVE.

A.I. is also our industry's Jumbo in the living room. NO ONE will cop to it although a number of participating farms have been caught red handed. It's just too hot a potato for our "leaders" to handle. Of course, many of these 'leaders' own large breeding farms with stallions who supposedly breed upwards of 200 mares a season--sometimes in both hemispheres.

So, recognizing that A.I. is a forbidden practice (rightly or wrongly), what are the opinions of those who frequent the breeding sheds? Any evidence?

CA Michael wrote:OK, let's all admit it-----A.I. is used extensively in the U.S. Even though the Jockey Club strictly prohibits its use, except as an immediate backup to a live cover, many farms (small and large) use the BIG SLEEVE.

A.I. is also our industry's Jumbo in the living room. NO ONE will cop to it although a number of participating farms have been caught red handed. It's just too hot a potato for our "leaders" to handle. Of course, many of these 'leaders' own large breeding farms with stallions who supposedly breed upwards of 200 mares a season--sometimes in both hemispheres.

So, recognizing that A.I. is a forbidden practice (rightly or wrongly), what are the opinions of those who frequent the breeding sheds? Any evidence?

Can't say for sure because who could witness all the live covers going on. Supposedly, each mating is video taped... but then only a porn addict would sit down to watch 10s of thousands of horses mate to be sure all were "live covers". I strongly suspect many of the farms OWN mares are A.Id. .....while clients are live cover out of fear of being caught.


I do have it on good authority that Viagra / Cialis and other ED drugs are used hard and heavy in Ky. Specifically to the studs breeding mega books of mares i.e. 75 and up.... some over 200 mares a spring.... UFB!


In fact the reason AI was always illegal was to avoid what is happening now with these mega books.


Commercial breeding / sales etc. have been no friend to horseracing in the big picture. Bad mares are bred left and right to studs with very short racing careers... no premium for durability or soundness. It's nuts far as I'm concerned..... but the beat goes on.

I also know of viagra being used at one farm, but i've never seen or heard of someone seeing an AI cover. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, just not sure how regularly its performed.

Some twelve years ago I was told by an Irish breeder, that at the Irish national Stud you got a picture of the covering, but at Coolmore they made a video of it. In modern times you might get a dvd. Anyone with a story?

It happens all the time. The Jockey Club should come out of the middle ages and realize that AI is a more efficient and humane way of breeding. The number of mares that are covered (allegedly) by one horse (big time sires) is cruelty. There would be less infections in mares and horses and better husbandry all around. I'm not condoning freezing or shipping semen. Collecting a horse every other day is far more efficient and a better business practice for stallion and mare owner. AI will not increase the foal crop size as some fear, it is market driven. For the good of the industry I think there should be a maximum of 100 - 125 mares to be bred to one horse.

I've heard from dozens of people, none of whom ever worked on a breeding farm, how prevalent AI is in the TB industry. With these books of 200, it doesn't seem possible to me that these farms could accomplish that many breedings without it. But I keep coming back to the thought that there has to be several people involved for each collection and insemination, and they are all employees that are subject to getting mad and leaving. If two people know a secret, it's no secret. How is it possible that major farms have not been exposed by now by eyewitnesses?

majxmom wrote:I've heard from dozens of people, none of whom ever worked on a breeding farm, how prevalent AI is in the TB industry. With these books of 200, it doesn't seem possible to me that these farms could accomplish that many breedings without it. But I keep coming back to the thought that there has to be several people involved for each collection and insemination, and they are all employees that are subject to getting mad and leaving. If two people know a secret, it's no secret. How is it possible that major farms have not been exposed by now by eyewitnesses?

Most of the help can't speak English and are subject to deportation if they do talk. Money talks loudest, self-incrimination and retribution are good motivators.

erins isle wrote:Some twelve years ago I was told by an Irish breeder, that at the Irish national Stud you got a picture of the covering, but at Coolmore they made a video of it. In modern times you might get a dvd. Anyone with a story?

lol, so basically they are handing out horse porn?

Has anyone ever checked out how many equine semen extenders are now on the market? True, A.I. is legal in some other breeds, but retailers are not prohibited from selling it to Thoroughbred farms.

Here's an interesting link:

http://www.vetmed.lsu.edu/eiltslotus/th ... tion_4.htm

majxmom wrote:How is it possible that major farms have not been exposed by now by eyewitnesses?

As previously stated, most of the help doesn't speak English well (or at all) and are subject to deportation, but beyond that, it's a 'closed' industry for the most part. Rat someone out and you'll never work in the industry again -- not even as a groom.

I'm of two minds on limiting book size. Part of me says you can't draw a line and say "No more than 100 mares to a stallion per year" just like they shouldn't be able to allowed to say no to AI or embryo transfer. That's restriction of free trade and I don't agree with that. HOWEVER, I do think that, as a private business, the JC should be able to say they reserve the right to register no more than [x number] of foals from a specific stallion each year. If I'm not mistaken, the JC is not required to register your horse just because you have one.

As for the use of AI, I think it's pretty damned archaic that they don't allow it. Casallc is right, allowing AI is not going to result in 1000 Storm Cats every year nor is it going to crash the stud fee market. There aren't enough mares good enough to be bred to him nor are there enough owners with that kind of money. Seriously, how many people can afford to send 10 mares to Storm Cat each year at half a million dollars a mare? Never mind the fact the horse is in his 20s... he's not long for this world.

What WILL happen is an upward trending of mares being bred (someone who may spend $10k on a stud fee now will go to $15k because they don't have to pay to ship the mare halfway across the country) and some of those cheap nags in the $500 range would go away. People would be able to breed to the stallion who best matches their mare, not just the best of a narrow lot that they can afford to ship the mare to. Storm Cat, AP Indy and the rest of the $200k+ stallions won't be greatly affected. The stallions in the lower brackets would.

People are worried about having a few thousand Storm Cats if we allow AI? Think about that for a minute. What makes you think Storm Cat wouldn't LOSE mares under AI. Roll the clock back and ponder how many mares in the US might've been bred to Sunday Silence instead had they been allowed AI? How many might he lose to some of the Euro or South American lines? I think you'd find it would end up being a wash.

That being said, just because something is allowed, doesn't mean an individual stallion owner HAS to use it. If you stand a stallion and refuse to AI... if the stud is of enough quality, he'll get mares.

The truth is, AI isn't allowed because it would crash the land market in KY. Disallowing AI keeps the majority of the high priced stallions in KY (and a hell of a lot of people working). Without it, there's no reason to have those huge horse farms so they would be able to sell off land and lay off workers. Again, I'm of two minds... if a lot of those displaced workers are, in fact, illegal... GOOD. If there's no job, maybe they'll go back to wherever they came from and try to come back legally. If they aren't... then that's a lot of people to throw in the unemployment line and start handing out benefits.

BTW, anyone who thinks this country isn't socialistic needs to stop and think about how many entitlement programmes this country has in place.

erins isle wrote:Some twelve years ago I was told by an Irish breeder, that at the Irish national Stud you got a picture of the covering, but at Coolmore they made a video of it. In modern times you might get a dvd. Anyone with a story?

When I worked at the Irish National Stud, they just took a picture, but they may have upgraded to video. I can tell you they never did AI and never did any checking of the sperm after the cover either.

On the other hand, I was told by someone who sent a mare to be bred at another large farm that when the stallion was experiencing low fertility, the farm told the owner to just leave the mare with them, they would get her pregnant. They used AI, but the mare still didn't get in foal.

Intrinsic Worth wrote:

erins isle wrote:Some twelve years ago I was told by an Irish breeder, that at the Irish national Stud you got a picture of the covering, but at Coolmore they made a video of it. In modern times you might get a dvd. Anyone with a story?

When I worked at the Irish National Stud, they just took a picture, but they may have upgraded to video. I can tell you they never did AI and never did any checking of the sperm after the cover either.

On the other hand, I was told by someone who sent a mare to be bred at another large farm that when the stallion was experiencing low fertility, the farm told the owner to just leave the mare with them, they would get her pregnant. They used AI, but the mare still didn't get in foal.

If the horse is sterile they won't get in foal by AI either, you just know it before you miss a years foal crop. I'd much rather look at the semen to know the horse wasn't shooting blanks, than to rely on the "was it good for you" method.

[quote="Sam"]The truth is, AI isn't allowed because it would crash the land market in KY. Disallowing AI keeps the majority of the high priced stallions in KY (and a hell of a lot of people working). Without it, there's no reason to have those huge horse farms so they would be able to sell off land and lay off workers. Again, I'm of two minds... if a lot of those displaced workers are, in fact, illegal... GOOD. If there's no job, maybe they'll go back to wherever they came from and try to come back legally. If they aren't... then that's a lot of people to throw in the unemployment line and start handing out benefits.
[quote]

I really don't think AI would effect the number of farms, the number of people or amount of land, necessarily. The mares would still have to come to the stallions (no shipping semen) and the same care is needed for mares and foals. There is a good amount of work involved with AI also, the horse is just not the one who has to do all of it.

In my opinion, AI would narrow the gene pool to (1) the most desirable stallions, and of those, (2) to those whose semen could withstand the method and remain viable. Of course, we would need fewer stallions.. so there might be a LOT more geldings floating around in need of re-homing..

I don't really think it would actually affect KY in the way it is described earlier in this thread.. the mares would still be here to foal and eat the wonderful calcuim-rich pasture.. but the rules of the breeders' incentive programs would still hold the geographic restrictions.

madelyn,

If we look to the Quarter Horse industry we can probably learn a few things about how AI effects the gene pool. Pick up any sale catalog or stallion register and you'll find the astoundingly high amount of inbreeding to an equally astoundingly few number of stallions. Dash For Cash, First Down Dash, *Beduino and Easy Jet often appear in multiples in most QH pedigrees. I hate to sound like Louis, but I think that this high concentration of these few sires may be a major reason why the average QH career is so short (the other reason being that industry's obsession with 2yo racing).

Diversity in the gene pool should be the goal so that inbred mares can be easily outcrossed.

Your comment about state bred programs does bring up an interesting point. If a California mare were to receive shipped semen from a KY stallion year after year, would those foals be considered CA or KY bred? The Cal bred rule at present allows the offspring of mares bred to KY stallions to be registered as Cal breds if the mare foals and is bred back in CA. But, if AI is legalized, and the CA mare is repeatedly bred to KY stallions, its my guess those foals would no longer be eligible.

As a stallion owner in several states, I am opposed to A.I. because for the most part regional stallions would become unnecessary. Only if reasonable limits on the number of mares bred (as Sam suggests) would A.I. be acceptable to me. But that won't happen---Hell would rise up if Ashford, Airdrie, Lanes End, Vinery, etc. were suddenly limited to 100 mares or so per stallion.