Pedigree Query

What made him such a good sire?

I know he's by raise a native... and the raise a native/golddigger crossing worked well, if not on the race track, in the breeding shed, as Mr P's full brothers, without the amount of mares, definatly produced some above avgerage runners

any thoughts?

There's a book all about Mr P due out next month...buy it! Buy it twice! Buy it for all your friends!

Regards,
Mahubah Promotions

Ok Rok, there are times I read your posts, shake my head in wonderment or disgust, and, often times... wish you spent more time reading than writing... (and perhaps even have hoped your keyboard would start to revolt against you).

However, every once in a while you come through with one of these types of posts and I find myself laughing and even... gasp... being glad you are around.

Well, thank you, KAL. Read my next 100 posts...99 will most likely disgust you, but, eventually, one will pop up that you like.

Best,
Rok

BDW, great question... one of the greatest of all time... and one of the most asked of all time. (Another all time greats is "How did Secretariat not become one of the greatest sires of all time?"

Personally, I don't think it one thing... rather a combination of several.

First, conformationally he had his weaknesses... and passed them along, however they rarely affected performance. I think he passed along certain traits which allowed for things like balance, a high level of efficiency, and speed.

He also had a certain mental toughness, which seemed to be passed along also (I'd say this includes competitiveness and desire and a fondness for the action). Its the old "fight in the dog" thing. Also, if they like their job, they tend to stay at it longer and be more successful.

Also, the timing was good. He brought speed into a sport wishing for more speed. He brought genetics into an environment looking for something to "go with" that which was already there (the old... Mr. P over N.D cross...). And, he was in a position to be a foundation of a growing industry. Of course, once he had a little success... this success begot more success... which led to better, bigger books, more money, more people with money owning the foals... etc.... and all this in a more positive environment than that found now (how quick are people to try to poke holes into Storm Cat, A.P. Indy, etc... didn't happen as much in those days).

Bringing all things together... kinda like a cake... ingredients by themselves may be good, but taken together proved to be great.

Of course... what the heck do I know... buy the book... it will be a great read, greatly thought out, greatly documented, and provide a much more complete picture from an incredible resource.

i have my theory on big red, and he wasn't a bad sire by any stretch, he was just a better Damsire.. if i"m not mistaken he's the damsire of Storm Cat (spit)

what's the name of the book?

My guess is that he was from the sprint/speed end of the gene pool. Got a major helping of those genes, and was able to pass them on to non-sprint type mares creating the classic TB, with a bias toward speed.

I certainly think it's a combination of factors. I would also give props to his dam-line, who also produced Seattle Slew... the great female family of Frizette.

bdw0617 wrote:what's the name of the book?

I'm not sure what the precise name of the book is. It is the next offering by Avalyn Hunter (Mahubah here on the board) who wrote American Classic Pedigrees and The Kingmaker: How Northern Dancer Founded a Racing Dynasty. Both are great books, so I'm sure the Mr. Prospector book will be a winner too.

Ah, shucks, y'all...thanks. The new book is supposed to be titled Gold Rush and should be out this fall -- not sure of the exact date yet. I'm supposed to be discussing marketing with Eclipse Press over the next few days, so I'll pass on information about a release date and any book signings as soon as I have it.

I spent a fair amount of time talking to trainer Jimmy Croll and also corresponded with Mr. P's regular rider Walter Blum, and I can tell you that if these two gentlemen -- Hall of Famers both -- are to be believed, Mr. P was a much better racer than he ever got the chance to show. He had a very high-quality pedigree top to bottom, and like Northern Dancer, he was a very well-balanced horse who had proportions very near the breed average and so could physically fit a large share of the broodmare population.

Talked to marketing at Eclipse today, and they are thinking the book may be ready for release about September 15. Tentative plans are being tossed around for a book signing in Ocala to coincide with the October mixed sale. We'll see how it works out.

KAL wrote:BDW, great question... one of the greatest of all time... and one of the most asked of all time. (Another all time greats is "How did Secretariat not become one of the greatest sires of all time?"

Personally, I don't think it one thing... rather a combination of several.

First, conformationally he had his weaknesses... and passed them along, however they rarely affected performance. I think he passed along certain traits which allowed for things like balance, a high level of efficiency, and speed.

He also had a certain mental toughness, which seemed to be passed along also (I'd say this includes competitiveness and desire and a fondness for the action). Its the old "fight in the dog" thing. Also, if they like their job, they tend to stay at it longer and be more successful.

Also, the timing was good. He brought speed into a sport wishing for more speed. He brought genetics into an environment looking for something to "go with" that which was already there (the old... Mr. P over N.D cross...). And, he was in a position to be a foundation of a growing industry. Of course, once he had a little success... this success begot more success... which led to better, bigger books, more money, more people with money owning the foals... etc.... and all this in a more positive environment than that found now (how quick are people to try to poke holes into Storm Cat, A.P. Indy, etc... didn't happen as much in those days).

Bringing all things together... kinda like a cake... ingredients by themselves may be good, but taken together proved to be great.

Of course... what the heck do I know... buy the book... it will be a great read, greatly thought out, greatly documented, and provide a much more complete picture from an incredible resource.

Seth Hancock noted that Secretariat needed to be bred to unproven and proven mares, and that he was mainly bred to proven mares.

Proven/unproven had nothing much to do with it, but speed vs. stamina in the mares did. Secretariat spent half his stud career covering classic-type mares before his folks figured out that what he needed most was mares with sharp speed instead -- as it turned out, Secretariat was throwing a lot more like his maternal grandsire *Princequillo than like his sire Bold Ruler.

Avalyn,

Did you interview Mr. P's groom, Gus, I think it was? We toured Claiborne shortly after his (Mr. P) death and he did the tour. Hardly 5 minutes would go by when he would mention Mr. P and usually by the end of a minute his voice would be cracking and his eyes welling up. He would gather himself and talk about some of the other stallions on the farm - many of them Mr. P sons, but the conversation always ended back on Mr. P and the whole sequence would repeat itself. He felt very lucky to have been Mr. P's groom for all those years but I think Mr. P was lucky to have had Gus as well.