Pedigree Query

to know.. as well all know that stallions tend to tail off as the age gets up..


what is the oldest stallion to ever sire a Kentucky Derby winner?

Maybe Bold Ruler with Secretariat? Wasn't he 17 or so when he sired him?

no you are thinking of somethingroyal who was the oldest dam to sire a triple crown winner at 17

off the top of my head, Mr. Prospector with FUSAICHI PEGASUS, I'm thinking he was 26

bdw0617 wrote:no you are thinking of somethingroyal who was the oldest dam to sire a triple crown winner at 17

No...Bold Ruler was about 17 when Secretariat was born.

Fu Peg/Mr P is a good guess - I forgot about those two.

Maybe Giant's Causeway will live to be 100? LOL!

my whole point is... I would venture to make a bet that the majority of stallions are say.. under the age of 15 that sire KD winners.

look at the last 10:

Street Cry: 5
Dynaformer: 18
Holy Bull: 10
Elusive Quality: 7
Our Emblem: 8
Maria's Mon: 4
Mr. P: 27
Summer Squall: 8
Quiet American: 8


I can go on but it's a trend but i didn't know i'd be THAT young. my whole reasoning behind it is a stallion will produce his best offspring the younger he is. the older he gets, more times than not his offsprings talent level will die down as well, a la storm cat.

Yeah, but you have to take into account how FEW stallions are actually left in the geriatric shed. So many kick the bucket after age 10 that it's not a fair comparison, IMO, plus a lot got the primo mares of their lives in their first three years in the shed (through shareholders).

Ages of stallions when their Derby winning offspring were foaled:

Silver Buck - 19
Unbridled - 9
Gulch - 11
Cormorant - 20
Polish Navy - 9
At The Threshhold - 11
Alydar - 16
Fappiano - 13
Halo - 20
Caro - 21
Nijinsky - 19
Buckaroo - 10
Seattle Slew - 10
Cougar II - 16
His Majesty - 13
Exclusive Native - 15
Bold Bidder - 17

This subject interests me a lot because I have some pretty old mares. I kind of think that the genetics are the most important aspect of breeding, but the AGE of the sperm, egg, and womb are probably also a factor...how MUCH of a factor is the confusing part for me. The data simply isn't good enough. I remember one time when I was doing an informal study on this, that I found where this one mare had been bred to this same stallion her entire breeding career. I think the stallion was In Reality. Anyway, the mare produced a grade III winner early on, a grade III winner about mid-career, and a grade II or grade I-placed late in her career. So basically, together they produced runners that were fairly consistent in quality in spite of the advanced ages of both the mare and the stallion later in life. But there are not enough examples like that to really have a complete picture.

halo wrote:Ages of stallions when their Derby winning offspring were foaled:

Silver Buck - 19
Unbridled - 9
Gulch - 11
Cormorant - 20
Polish Navy - 9
At The Threshhold - 11
Alydar - 16
Fappiano - 13
Halo - 20
Caro - 21
Nijinsky - 19
Buckaroo - 10
Seattle Slew - 10
Cougar II - 16
His Majesty - 13
Exclusive Native - 15
Bold Bidder - 17

still the median is lower than 15

Well the sperm is manufactured on demand so its age is measured in days.. stallions aren't "born" with a tank of sperm. And while mares are born with ovaries, a follicle has to grow, mature and ovulate so I do not personally believe the "age" of the ovaries and their follicle matter is relevant. What IS relevant in the "older" mare is how she is managed, ie: diet, minerals, teeth, maintenance, etc.

bdw0617 wrote:still the median is lower than 15

A number that means nothing at all in itself. What is the mean or median age of all TB sires, period? Of winners? Stakes winners? What is the median age of all stallions that don't have KY Derby winers? And on and on.

Old horses are less likely to be alive than young horses. Dead horses have a hard time getting Derby winners. Being dead really does wreak havoc on stallion's numbers.

freshman wrote:

bdw0617 wrote:still the median is lower than 15

A number that means nothing at all in itself. What is the mean or median age of all TB sires, period? Of winners? Stakes winners? What is the median age of all stallions that don't have KY Derby winers? And on and on.

Old horses are less likely to be alive than young horses. Dead horses have a hard time getting Derby winners. Being dead really does wreak havoc on stallion's numbers.

what did i do? my frekain gosh. sorry for trying to throw out what was a theory. next time I wll take my own nails to the stake with me

Actually the median is 15 and the average (or mean) is 14.65.

Would that be a BYON party?

If it will make you feel better, there are several in KY who repeat the same thought. Of course, they often are trying to promote younger stallions or mares... always trying to sell something... Definitely doesn't make it right.

Personally, I understand how age can effect fertility, but I never have understood the thought that there could be a correlation with the resulting foal. It is the same DNA isn't it? Perhaps someone could help us with this.

KAL wrote:Actually the median is 15 and the average (or mean) is 14.65.

Would that be a BYON party?

If it will make you feel better, there are several in KY who repeat the same thought. Of course, they often are trying to promote younger stallions or mares... always trying to sell something... Definitely doesn't make it right.

Personally, I understand how age can effect fertility, but I never have understood the thought that there could be a correlation with the resulting foal. It is the same DNA isn't it? Perhaps someone could help us with this.

I don't know, it just makes sense to me somewhat. I know sperm count reduces as one gets older, but maybe the genetic makeup of the actual DNA of the sperm is constantly changing and the older a stallion gets, the... hell I don't' know.. it's just an idea. I can explain it but I know it when I see it.. kinda like porn.