Empire Maker and Mineshaft

bdw0617 · Postby **bdw0617** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 3:15 am

We are now in october.. and while the end of the year is still 3 months away... these two first year stallions are not off to what you would call a "hot" start to say the least.

I'm not going to be as hard on mineshaft.. he was a late bloomer, and I will give his offspring the same opprounity. Plus I've seen his get at least in races competing.

I haven't seen JACK from Empire Maker's offspring yet... this is a horse because of his momma, I considered to be a pretty can't miss prospect. Boy was I wrong at least so far.

thoughts?

Maven · Postby **Maven** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 6:26 am

I don't like either from a pedigree perspective much, BUT both should be given well into next year before being called "disappointing". Empire Maker saw mostly mares that were better three year olds and higher for the most part and Mineshaft didn't get rolling until 4.

Nov/Dec is the time of year when you see a lot of marked improvement from progeny of stallions like this.

Tesio · Postby **Tesio** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 12:22 pm

I agree both should be given time to prove themselves as neither are really supposed to get the "early" types. I can't understand what is not to like about their pedigrees though, especially Empire Maker. He is one of many well above average foals from one of the best mares in the book. Chester House, with only 3 crops, has proven to get a number of good ones and might have had a very bright future. Kiaran Mclaughlin had a three year old by Chester House who was undefeated that we might hear things from next year. Empire Maker was probably the MOST well-bred offspring of Unbridled. From reading many posts, I do, however, respect your opinions Maven and I am curious as to why you feel the way you do about Empire Maker's pedigree in particular.

Maven · Postby **Maven** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 1:20 pm

First off, let me just say that I fully expect him to get some big horses... he got the best book of mares ever granted to a new stallion. If he doesn't it will be a gross shock.

BUT, his female family, for all the hype and acclaim, really comes short. Yes, Toussaud is one of the best producers in the last 50 years... no question.

But the accolades thrown to the family behind her has always boggled my mind. I respect Ellen Parker immensely, but how she could have made Ortalon, Edee's Image, and even (to some extent) Bravura bluehens, completely blows my mind.

When Hail the Pirates is the best thing the family has produced stallion wise in over 5 generations. You have to go back to the 7th dam, Teresina, to see Alibhai, who, even though unraced, was a truly exceptional stallion.

Everything about him is a "wait and see" to me. Unbridled's best son, Unbridled's Song, had exceptional speed. I cant help but think that's an important element, and even though Empire Maker was not a plodder, he certainly didn't have a world of speed.

Rokeby Forever · Postby **Rokeby Forever** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 1:36 pm

Maven wrote:Unbridled's best son, Unbridled's Song, had exceptional speed. I cant help but think that's an important element, and even though Empire Maker was not a plodder, he certainly didn't have a world of speed.

And that's why you're high on Harlington? :roll:

Maven · Postby **Maven** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 1:42 pm

I'm not "high" on Harlington. I just think he will be an interesting and cheap commercial play for smaller breeders when he goes to stud. He cant stand for more than 10k.. probably like 7.5k. I dont actually like that family as stallion producers either.

Rokeby Forever · Postby **Rokeby Forever** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 1:55 pm

Malabar Gold might have been Unbridled's fastest son - and he's a disaster at stud. Is speed really that necessary with Unbridled?

Broken Vow wasn't a speedburner and he's sired some pretty fast two year olds, and now a $1 Million earner in Unbridled Belle. And, my dear Maven - who's been touting Saarland? He wasn't exactly a bunny rabbit for Shug.

Maven · Postby **Maven** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 1:59 pm

Broken Vow has the bone that so many of them lack. I think he corrects a lot of the problems the Unbridled's have.

And was I touting Saarland? I like his female line but I'm not sure how much I like him. With that said, didn't he run a very fast mile in his day?

Rokeby Forever · Postby **Rokeby Forever** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 4:34 pm

Saarland ran a very good Met Mile, but he never smelled the lead in that race, Maven - or in any of his races. When was the last time you saw a Shug speedball, anyway?

Maven · Postby **Maven** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 4:37 pm

Or a Shug stallion of note... like I said, I liked his sire and I like his female family... but I dont ever remember "touting" him as the second coming of anything.

Rokeby Forever · Postby **Rokeby Forever** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 4:43 pm

Need I remind you of Pleasant Home's BC Distaff performance only two short years ago? Until Street Sense came along, it was the BIGGEST winning margin in BC race history.

Shug has a couple of very, very nice two year olds....the magic is back!

Tesio · Postby **Tesio** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 4:46 pm

Must a stallion's female line be proven at producing stallions in order to make said stallion a viable entity?

I don't know what I just asked but it's sort of the chicken and egg question.

If you would give any mare in the last 50 years a chance to produce a stallion, barring all ancestry, wouldn't you say Toussaud had as good a shot as any?

Female family is indeed important to me in planning stallion matings, but not so much in how many stallions came from the line as the true quality of those in the family.

Hasili sure is a great producer of truly outstanding racehorses. Most happen to be females. Would this have stopped us from breeding to Dansili who has recently made quite a name for himself. Does this make Cacique a good stallion prospect? or was he already based on the quality of the family not Dansili's success?

Rokeby Forever · Postby **Rokeby Forever** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 5:00 pm

I think it's very, very difficult for a good stallion to pop up from a family that has no history of producing one. There are very good producing families, Toussaud being one of them, but the vast of majority of them produce racehorses vs stallions.

Maven · Postby **Maven** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 5:05 pm

No, a female family does not have to be a proven stallion maker but for 100k, it has to be in my criteria. That's a huge gamble for a stallion who has a questionable front left (I believe its the left).

Toussaud has proven to get an "ok" stallion by a much better sire of sires in Mr. Prospector. So, adding the Unbridled on top doesnt do a whole lot to sweeten the pot for me.

The whole Hasili clan has been thick with class for generations. Its been much more consistently top class and productive than Toussaud's family, which means I'm going to appreciate them more from an unproven perspective.

Again, everyone has different criteria. I just try to take out as many of the variables out of the equation as I can when I'm breeding to the unknown.

Tesio · Postby **Tesio** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 5:11 pm

"I just try to take out as many of the variables out of the equation as I can when I'm breeding to the unknown."

This is a Very Good point.

The only thing is this is the age of finding the hot horse. This would imply a whole lot of "breeding to the unknown". I would have thought Empire Maker was as sure a chance as any.

I guess we'll know a heck of a lot more this time next year.