With the passage of slots and the actual building plans approved at both tracks, people are starting to get excited, and breeding in Indiana is set to take off again. I know that there are going to be a few new stallions moving in, as well as some renewed interest in some of the stallions who are already here.
I would be interested to hear people's thoughts on a few things:
1.) Do you think Indiana stud fees will increase, decrease, or stay the same as a general rule?
(Talking about current Indiana stallions here; I know that there will be some big shots bringing in some higher fee stallions, but MOST breeders in Indiana have been barely hanging on the past several years and are not likely to get involved in that just yet.)
2.) What bloodlines might people be looking for in a stallion when breeding specifically for Indiana racing?
(There is no 2YO racing at Indiana Downs. Also, there is a lovely turf track there. Will this factor in to bloodline preferences?)
Anyone care to speculate on what changes might be heading our direction? I'm assuming that commercial breeding will have no real influence out here; instead people will be interested in breeding runners. Agree or disagree?
Indiana Stallions
Moderators: Roguelet, WaveMaster, madelyn
Indiana Stallions
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"Don't be a boorish buffoon" -Hokies Respect 'Jerk Alert'
"Don't be a boorish buffoon" -Hokies Respect 'Jerk Alert'
New to slots
I can only speak to what happened in Pennsylvania, but it might help.
First, we got a bunch of new stallions, but the stud fees of the old stallions didn't change much. Stud fees now range from free to about $5,000, which isn't very different than before. A lot of farms expect to increase revenue via boarding & foaling out mares.
Then again, PA doesn't have any sires stakes & so far, I haven't really seen state-restricted races [but it could be I just missed all that]. But without those, the incentive just isn't there to breed to a PA sire, if he's not the one you otherwise would have chosen. The higher-priced PA-registered yearlings at Timonium were by KY sires, or some of the more marketable regional sires. I didn't see the entire sale, but didn't see any PA sires who sold especially well - although there were a few PA-sired youngsters who should certainly do well at the track.
Prices have gone up somewhat on racing stock, as purses increased at Philly Park & as Presque Isle ran, but not on breeding stock/weanlings, as that's too long-term of an investment still for most people.
It does look like some breeders are culling their broodmare bands to get better mares, in anticipation of the upcoming competition.
But with regard to effect on the state stallion population - there is more competition to book mares, but the mare population that is being bred to in-state sires doesn't seem to be increasing.
Again, I think it depends on how a state's breeders' incentives are structured, but that's what I'm seeing here.
First, we got a bunch of new stallions, but the stud fees of the old stallions didn't change much. Stud fees now range from free to about $5,000, which isn't very different than before. A lot of farms expect to increase revenue via boarding & foaling out mares.
Then again, PA doesn't have any sires stakes & so far, I haven't really seen state-restricted races [but it could be I just missed all that]. But without those, the incentive just isn't there to breed to a PA sire, if he's not the one you otherwise would have chosen. The higher-priced PA-registered yearlings at Timonium were by KY sires, or some of the more marketable regional sires. I didn't see the entire sale, but didn't see any PA sires who sold especially well - although there were a few PA-sired youngsters who should certainly do well at the track.
Prices have gone up somewhat on racing stock, as purses increased at Philly Park & as Presque Isle ran, but not on breeding stock/weanlings, as that's too long-term of an investment still for most people.
It does look like some breeders are culling their broodmare bands to get better mares, in anticipation of the upcoming competition.
But with regard to effect on the state stallion population - there is more competition to book mares, but the mare population that is being bred to in-state sires doesn't seem to be increasing.
Again, I think it depends on how a state's breeders' incentives are structured, but that's what I'm seeing here.
Does PA have year round racing?
I think the issue in Indiana is not so much slots as lack of races for Indiana-breds. So the "benefit" would best be realized if you had a horse capable of running anywhere that is also an Indiana bred, because it could go win somewhere else on Indiana's long dark days.
In KY and NY (I don't know about other states) the benefit is the number of racing days in the state. I DO see an increase in the number of mares from IN coming to KY to some heavy hitting stallions and heading home to get IN breds. I don't really have an idea, though, how it might affect stud fees, long term, since IN has stallion awards (KY does not) and most people know that. Stallion awards in the breeder's program have a hampering effect in that the folks who bring their mares to your stallion know you will get money if the offspring wins a race. That irks some folks and they expect free or cheap breedings.
I think the issue in Indiana is not so much slots as lack of races for Indiana-breds. So the "benefit" would best be realized if you had a horse capable of running anywhere that is also an Indiana bred, because it could go win somewhere else on Indiana's long dark days.
In KY and NY (I don't know about other states) the benefit is the number of racing days in the state. I DO see an increase in the number of mares from IN coming to KY to some heavy hitting stallions and heading home to get IN breds. I don't really have an idea, though, how it might affect stud fees, long term, since IN has stallion awards (KY does not) and most people know that. Stallion awards in the breeder's program have a hampering effect in that the folks who bring their mares to your stallion know you will get money if the offspring wins a race. That irks some folks and they expect free or cheap breedings.
So Run for the Roses, as fast as you can.....
KBEquine wrote:A lot of farms expect to increase revenue via boarding & foaling out mares.
I've heard that here about a few places, too.
KBEquine wrote:Then again, PA doesn't have any sires stakes & so far, I haven't really seen state-restricted races [but it could be I just missed all that]. But without those, the incentive just isn't there to breed to a PA sire, if he's not the one you otherwise would have chosen.
Indiana already has bred races, sired races, sired stakes, etc, all of which should become even more attractive with the added money from slots. I would think that breeding to Indiana stallions will become more attractive to some of those people who are breeding with the specific intent to participate in the Indiana program, simply because there are some sired opportunities above and beyond straight "bred" opportunities. Also, the program's rules are being restructured and aren't finalized yet, so we're talking in unknowns to some degree, but those who want Indiana breds by out of state stallions will likely find themselves forced to breed to in state sires at least every other year whether they want to or not.
madelyn wrote:I think the issue in Indiana is not so much slots as lack of races for Indiana-breds. So the "benefit" would best be realized if you had a horse capable of running anywhere that is also an Indiana bred, because it could go win somewhere else on Indiana's long dark days.
In KY and NY (I don't know about other states) the benefit is the number of racing days in the state.
I sort of like the way it's set up now. You can run in the Spring and Fall and give your horses a break during the killer winter months and the nastiest hottest part of the summer. If someone wants to ship their horses to Florida and run in the winter... great, but I'm not really that interested in seeing live Indiana racing in the middle of Winter anyway. This is just not the best location for that.
However, Indiana awards have always been payable to winners out of state at any time that there is no live racing in Indiana (and for 2 year olds even during the live Indiana Downs meet, since there is no 2 year old racing there,) or to stakes winners regardless of whether there is live Indiana racing or not. I imagine that will likely remain a benefit of the program.
madelyn wrote:Stallion awards in the breeder's program have a hampering effect in that the folks who bring their mares to your stallion know you will get money if the offspring wins a race. That irks some folks and they expect free or cheap breedings.
OK, seriously? Or are you pulling my leg? I absolutely can not wrap my mind around the mentality that would cause someone to think this way. That would be like the mare owner being upset that someone else gets the purse money for the horse that they bred after they sold it... or the owner of the horse being upset that the owner of the mare when the horse was foaled gets the breeders awards. Why on planet earth would ANYONE have a problem with the owner of a stallion (who purchased the stallion, financially supports the upkeep of that stallion, pays for all the advertising, etc etc etc) receiving a small award if that stallion produces offspring that win on the track? ESPECIALLY a MARE OWNER, who expects to benefit from the breeders awards that arise out of the very same program that also awards the owner of the stallion? I mean, really... should the stallion owner be upset that the mare owner gets an award?
Again, the program is being tweaked and things are not finalized, so take this with a grain of salt, but I have heard that one thing being considered is to have some sort of extra awards for sired horses... for example higher purses for sired races vs. bred races (while bred races would still be higher than open races,) or some kind of additional award for a sired horse on top of what it gets for being a bred horse, or preference given to sired horses when entering bred races, etc. I don't know exactly how this will all pan out, but any mare owner who breeds to an Indiana stallion because they want to collect the awards stemming from the Indiana breed development program would, in my opinion, be pretty out of line to be upset that the stallion owner might benefit from that offspring as well. I'm sorry, but that just boggles my mind. Please tell me... what in the heck am I missing???
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"Don't be a boorish buffoon" -Hokies Respect 'Jerk Alert'
"Don't be a boorish buffoon" -Hokies Respect 'Jerk Alert'
Slots have not made that much difference in the breeding business in Oklahoma. We actually have far fewer breeders than before pari-mutuel. The purses are better but it will be years before anything happens that will effect stud fees. They are too high now to realize any kind of return. I can buy cheap mares in KY, FL or MD (in foal) bring them to OK and register them OK bred before Dec 31. and come out ahead. I don't know how your breeders program is but here you can breed out of state every other year. Oklahoma bred purses, due to the additional slots money, are good and light competition.